Developing Student-Centered School Leadership with Dr. Angela Diggs

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Leadership, student success, diversity equity inclusion, educational consultant, special education, school psychology, teacher shortages, social emotional intelligence, communication, delegation, professional development, emergency mode, team building, historical context, mental health.

SPEAKERS

Angela Diggs, Joi Patterson, Amy Vujaklija

Angela Diggs: 00:03

Joi, when it comes to those shortages and how does that impact students? Is something that we have to think about. So Student Success should always be at the forefront.

Amy Vujaklija: 00:15

Welcome to our podcast, teaching and leading with Dr Amy and Dr Joi I am Dr Amy Vujaklija, Director of educator preparation, and

Joi Patterson: 00:26

I am Dr Joi Patterson, Chief Diversity Officer. Our podcast addresses issues through the lens of Diversity Equity and Inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow as educators.

Amy Vujaklija: 00:40

So join us on our journey to become better teachers and leaders. So let's get into it. Hello. Dr, Joi, hello. Dr, Amy, how are you

Joi Patterson: 00:53

today? I'm good. I'm happy to talk about this topic today, on leadership. You know this is one of the things we think we know well, at least we talk about it a lot, and we try to walk the talk.

Amy Vujaklija: 01:07

And I've read numerous books as you have, on leadership, on mentoring. What does it look like, but what does it look like? And whenever you think about leadership in the school setting. It really sets the tone for the whole school building and district, depending on the leadership level, and that is so very important. It goes all the way to the student level. They pick up on the vibe and the culture and the positivity or negativity of that school.

Joi Patterson: 01:43

And here's, I think, the biggest challenge with leadership, as we've learned as a leader, you have different masters, right, but you only have one beneficiary. And when you're in school leadership, your beneficiaries are your students, but you have all these masters right, and you have your board, you depending on your leadership position, you might have your superintendent, or you might have your principal, you have your your teachers and your staff, and you have so you have all of these other dynamics, and all of these people that you have to answer to and make whole, But your beneficiaries are your students. So how do you lead in a student centered way and still please all these other masters,

Amy Vujaklija: 02:31

and how do you make that clear and transparent to the people you lead? So we will talk today to Dr Angela Diggs, who is the Director of Special Services at a local school district and an educational consultant with a background in special education, school administration and school psychology. She earned her Bachelor of Arts degree in psychology from Kentucky State University, a master's degree in School Psychology from Governor State University and a doctorate in education in counseling psychology from Argosy University. Dr Diggs is known for her strong work ethic as well as her personable and down to earth leadership style, in addition to her work as an educational consultant. Dr Diggs is a real estate agent, member of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority Inc, and a mom to three children. So welcome to our podcast. Dr Diggs,

Joi Patterson: 03:39

hi. It's so good to see you all. Hi, what a resume and such a role model. I want to be like you when I grow up. Oh, my goodness, thank you. I appreciate that. So this is wonderful. So Dr Angela, tell us more about yourself beyond all the wonderful things that Doctor Amy just read. But also, you know, when I talked to you before we've had an opportunity to actually meet you, it has quite the journey to get to where you are. So also, kind of guide us to what brought you to the position you're in now.

Angela Diggs: 04:19

Yes, thank you again for this opportunity to speak with you all. So my journey in education, actually, a lot of people don't know this. I started as a peer professional, so I had gotten my bachelor's degree. And of course, you know, a bachelor's in psychology does not always mean, you know, you're going to get that, that job right out of college. And so I knew I was going to pursue my master's degree, which I'm happy I did it at Governor state. And so I knew I would be doing that. And so in the meantime, it was like, you know, you got to find a job. And so I had the opportunity to work as a peer professional. Know, which is where my love for working in schools started. And so that's when I kind of decided, okay, I know I'm going to get my masters. I want to get it in School Psychology, because I started to get an understanding of what that work looked like. And being able to kind of marry the idea of working in education with my background in psychology was very intriguing to me. So started out as a school psychologist and did that for quite some time. I also, with my background in School Psychology, had the opportunity to work as an intervention counselor, supporting students with academic and social emotional needs, and while doing the work of a school psychologist and intervening and supporting students, my boss, at the time was retiring and said she was going through resume or applications of applicants, and said, Hey, why didn't you apply for my job? So I applied for her job, and I was fortunate enough to get her job and become the director of special education. So I did that for six years. I resigned and took a year off. That was a pretty big position. I was responsible for supervising 70 plus people, which is a just, it seems insane when I look back at it. So I decided to resign from that position. And that year turned into a surprisingly, it kind of turned into what I would consider like a little bit of a Eat, Pray, Love, type of year where I was doing a little bit of everything that I wanted to do. I got to do educational consultation, which is, you know, led me to start my own business, and I also got my real estate license. But it was really through the work that I did as an educational consultant. It allowed me to take a step back and really look at the landscape of what was happening when I was like more in a visitor capacity, to go into schools and see what it looked like. It was just it was very eye opening for me. And so did that for a year my former superintendent, he called me one day and said, Hey, I heard that you're still in town. And he's like, you know, I have a position that I think you would be great for. And I was joking, but I was serious, and I said to him, I said, Oh, nobody told you I broke up with education, and he's like, What? Because, again, taking that year off, it was, again, very eye opening to me for a couple reasons. One, I was able to see a lot of what I endured for a long time as a leader and and just the impact that stress and a high workload had had on me. I was just so relieved to be out of education at that time, because it is a very high pressure environment, and I was very apprehensive about going back. So I was very thankful that he thought of me, and so I did decide to go back. So now I am a director of special services. Most of my background is in ninth grade through, I say 22 years of age, because, you know that is the responsibility for students with exceptional needs. But now I have been able to gain pre K through eighth grade experience, which I did not have before, so that's been, so that's been really nice to get that experience,

Joi Patterson: 08:44

you know. I'm glad, you know, we took a long time in doing this, and I'm glad you really explained it the way that you did, because it speaks a lot to the journey of leadership and the ebbs and flows that it have. And it's not always just this trajectory that you think it should be, you know, and sometimes there's ebbs and flows of getting you to the place that you need to be. And in each space there's lessons to be learned. And sometimes we do have to reroute in order to get to the next step, or whatever it is that we want to achieve. And more importantly, it's important that we're operating in a place that we're passionate about, so that we can be a fact. So I thank you for you know, just your honesty and talking through the ebbs and

Angela Diggs: 09:35

flows. Oh yes, absolutely. It's so funny. You say that because I, I met a Director of Special Education recently who has become a pretty good colleague of mine now. And I was talking to her, she was just kind of like, you know, she hadn't met me before, so she's kind of like, where did you come from, you know? And I was giving her a little bit, oh, I was in high school now I'm here. And she's like, hold on, you took a year off, and she was and I said, Yes, and she was like, Whoa, that's commendable, you know. And I didn't really think about how big of a deal that was, because we all, you know, we need our paycheck, you know, and our identity sometimes are so tied to our careers and things like that, that I didn't really realize how big of a thing that was. And she was like, Wow, that's impressive. And I was like, thank you. So I do, I do now see how important that that is, that I did that,

Amy Vujaklija: 10:37

you know, I agree with that. It's like, it's an all or nothing, and there it doesn't have to be,

Angela Diggs: 10:46

it doesn't, it doesn't. But when you're in it, you don't, you don't see that it doesn't have to be, you know, to and I will say this too, typically, people that are in leadership in schools, I'll speak of schools, and this could be for other industries as well, but I'll say typically, when you reach that what is considered the pinnacle of your professional leadership, if you aspire to be an administrator, you know, I think it's, it's sometimes looked down upon to do a role less than, and I was actually very happy to do a role that would may have been considered less than by, you know, doing consultation work. And, you know, I did some school psychology work, and so, but when people get there, they they don't see themselves ever really going down. It's almost looks like, you know, is everything okay and you know, but I actually found it to be refreshing.

Amy Vujaklija: 11:49

And you talked about being able to examine, take a step back, and look in on what you were experiencing as a leader. Let's talk about that a little bit more. What interested you in that deep dive exploration of what leadership is, and your experiences with leadership?

Angela Diggs: 12:13

Yes, so when I think I realized that I was ready and had the capacity to take a deep dive in leadership, and I was even, like, intrigued and wanted to, was when I stepped back from my leadership role, and I did start to, you know, help a lot of administrators with school psychology work, because there was a shortage and they needed help in in a lot of their districts. So I was helping out about three school districts, and what really made me take that deep dive was one seeing how other people lead. Because I really only saw how my colleagues led that I worked with, but really being more of a visitor in a school setting, in multiple school settings, you're seeing different facets of leadership, which was really interesting to me. And not only that, when you are in leadership, you often aren't sitting at the lunchroom table to hear how people really think you know, you're not really privy to those conversations, because most of the time, they're going to give you a different response. When they're in your office or, you know, in a different setting, they're not going to really just unfilter, say how they feel. So it was nice to kind of hear what people thought about, you know, their work environments and things like that, how they receive direction, how they receive leadership. And it was also cool to see what leaders are struggling with, you know, when you're outside of it so and it, it really made me realize, like, wow, I really did learn a lot where I was, that I can help, you know, people with

Joi Patterson: 13:59

so just following up on that. So now that you've had that opportunity, and you continue to have that opportunity, and I'm always assessing Amy leadership style, she she's very conscientious, very and she's always thinking of the other person, which something I would love to embody. So you know, one of the What have you learned through these experiences and your journeys of meeting with other and helping to shape other leaders? Have you learned about being a leader? What are some of those things that you've taken away from them?

Angela Diggs: 14:39

I would say, the first thing I would say is that leadership is multi dimensional. There are so many facets of leadership, you know, it's kind of like it makes me think of teachers and how teachers roles have changed. You know, teachers will say, you know, when I. First started teaching. I just had to teach math, you know. Now I have to be a counselor. I have to, you know, do this, you know, make sure students eat, do this, and that, you know, there's just, they feel like there's so many aspects to being a teacher, and I feel like it's the same thing as with being a leader. It's very multi dimensional. You mentioned how Dr Amy is very conscientious. I think that's a huge part of leadership. I often talk about how I feel like that, social emotional intelligence is more important than a leader's competency. And I don't mean like you don't have to know anything. I don't mean it like that. I mean that your relatability, your ability to read a room, your ability to be aware of the tact that you bring into an environment and and approaching people as humans is more important to that team member than that you know your X's and O's you know, or your you know your arrows and exes, or however you want to say it, or that concept or that idea that that's more important they want to know that you can relate to them, because that relatability helps them feel like they can trust you as a leader, and then when they trust you as a leader, then they trust your competency level. So it's almost like it used to probably not be, that maybe we didn't pay as much attention to that in the past, probably. But I personally believe that the social emotional intelligence piece is actually more of what should be the priority when we're working with our teams, because I feel all that the other piece will come, but you have to, you have to have some camaraderie with your team. They have to know you care.

Amy Vujaklija: 17:01

I want to say something about Dr Joi leadership, because what Joi does is anticipate and know what voices need to be heard and who needs to be listening. And that's been so valuable to just have that foresight and stop problems before they start. Yes, so I can see that, you know, that's a visual model for me. What if? What about you? What do you see and what can you share? As far as visually speaking, like, what does good leadership look like?

Joi Patterson: 17:44

Yeah,

Angela Diggs: 17:46

so just let me first say that's huge, that that foresight piece, and I feel like that that often comes with, I'll use the word failure, right? So like you had to experience something first in order to know that this is something that we need to be aware of. You know what I mean, like it, and maybe not even failure, right? Maybe, maybe a feeling, someone felt left out, or something like that. And so next time, we'll do it like this, it there has to have been something that happened that it gives you're more heightened to make sure that something like that is taken care of, and it's not, you know, something that's overseen. But I'll say, in terms of, for me, good leadership, I always approach it as I'm a student. First. I look at it like that, I feel as though, when it comes to leadership, I personally don't feel as though you should take the position that you've arrived. You know, I feel like you learn. There is so much to be learned when you're in leadership, you're going to work with people with different personalities, different needs, different skill levels. There's so much. So I think that good leadership is someone that's eager to learn from others, open to getting input from the team. Varying points of interest are so important to a team's development, the culture of the team, how people you know feel like their their input matters. So I think that's very important. Also feel like as a leader, we have 10 a tendency to pour from an an empty cup, we we serve, we serve, we serve, and we do not often pay attention to our own needs. And so I think that while work life balance is not ever going to be perfect, but we do have to pay attention to the impact that our workload is. Having on our bodies and our mental health. I think that's important, too, as a leader. And the other thing I feel like I'm still learning, and I'm very much a student in this aspect, is the art of delegating. So I think that's something that I am constantly trying to do a better job of, because what I have found based on my previous work experience is that i There were times when I created situations that were not sustainable. So I would start doing something or a project or something like that, but I really should have delegated pieces of that project to other team members. And because I didn't, you know, I kept the work all for myself, and then I got myself into a spiral of being involved in projects that I couldn't sustain them by myself. And so, you know, maybe it's the 11th hour, and it's like I'm asking someone to help me with a project or something like that. And so I think it's important to delegate projects with team members that you can work alongside, or you feel like that, have an understanding of the vision that you want for certain things.

Amy Vujaklija: 21:22

I wanted to just point out that very interesting and valuable piece you said about failure, failure and missteps, yes, and that heightened awareness and I was totally relating, just even in a lesson, like doing a professional development session or something like that, and just bombing, and then really recalibrating and figuring it out and doing it, just knocking it out of the park the next time because of those missteps, and Really not ignoring those, you know, just letting those be learnt valuable lessons. Yes, it's just so valuable that you said that.

Joi Patterson: 22:08

I know I was thinking the exact same thing, and I was, I was smiling to myself, so I'm chuckling here. On one hand, I pride myself on being organized as strategic. But that can also work against you. You know, even in my current position on the President's Cabinet, you know, I go into the position, I know my stuff, I even have a plan I'm ready to execute. And then it was like I had to pump my brakes, because it wasn't resonating with anyone, because I wasn't taking that time, you know of what it really meant was developing relationships. And it may not necessarily be on your time, because you're working through relationships and you're working with people to get to that end goal. And those are those are really things that you have to learn, and every situation is different, because you're entering a body where people are functioning differently. So just taking that opportunity to learn where you are, to build those relationships and let them help you initiate those things, because trying to do it, it doesn't matter how much you know, how organized you are, how strategic you are, if you haven't built the groundwork and the relationships and the trust and the respect, then you're not going to get to your goal. So thank you. Thank you for calling us on that, because we've been there and we will continue to make those mistakes, but you know, we rebound a lot quicker because we notice it. We can recognize it much quicker now with experience

Angela Diggs: 23:51

and I Can I say one thing that you just made me think of by saying that, is when someone in a leadership capacity goes into a new position. I think one of the things that kind of going back to that social emotional intelligence. We we want to often as new leaders. We want to go into something and make it our own right away. And I would, I would strongly suggest people not do that right. And here is why. Here is why. So I have been someone that has been on the receiving end of leadership doing that, and so one of the things it does for the recipient is it makes them feel like everything we've been doing is wrong, you know, they think everything we've been doing is wrong. We don't do anything right, you know? So while the changes are, they're they're warranted. Often times right? They're warranted because there needs to often be a development and enhancement of some strategies and some procedures that have. Happen. I encourage people to take it slow. So I think it's always important to understand the historical context first, because there's a reason that these things have been going the way they've been going, the procedures, the practices, the policies. There's a historical context for it. So I always think it's important to learn the historical context, and in the process of doing that, build the relationships. And not like, you know, I want to be friends or anything like that. But no, it's about building the professional work relationships with the people that I'm going to work alongside or closest with, or, you know, my direct reports, or what have you, build those relationships and learn the historical context. Now are there going to be some immediate changes that are needed for whatever reason? Absolutely, that always happens. That's just a part of the process, but sometimes it's going to take a couple of tries of kind of getting through and understanding things from beginning to end, so you know what's going on, and then, you know, kind of taking notes along the way. Okay, this is what I think would happen. I see a gap here. We gotta close this gap, you know, and then slowly integrating those things. But I think I would always encourage someone going into a new role, learn the historical context, and while doing that, build those relationships. And then, you know, take your notes along the way, as you try to figure out what gaps need to be filled in, what things need more efficiency to build a better system. So by

Joi Patterson: 26:41

the time we end this discussion, we will have written the framework of leadership by Dr Angela Biggs. But because this is good, because it's been so broad for leadership in general, I do want to just bring it a little bit focus, although I don't want to, because I'm enjoying where we are. And maybe you can bring this directly to, well, how does that good leadership look in terms of student success?

Angela Diggs: 27:11

So I think with student success, I think the first thing with student success is, when you're working with your team, you have to first decipher where your team is. Do you have a student centered team, or do you have an adult centered team? If you have an adult centered team, you're going to have to slowly help them transition to a student centered team, because what's been happening is it's been all about them, and it has to be all about the students. So you first have to figure out what system you're working in in order to get to that student success. So once you figure out what the culture is, you know, is it adult center? Is it student centered? You have to figure that out first. Once you figure that out, then again, it's kind of going back to that same idea of slowly, kind of building a different framework, but it you almost gotta do it in a way and, and I'm just going to say it, it's almost like you have to trick your team. Because, you know, sometimes teams don't like too much change, but you have to do it in a way that because you you need your team you know, and you need you need your team to to work alongside you, you know and you don't, that friction is going to create problems as far as building cohesion and a strong Being a strong unit. So you want to do it slowly, and you also want to get their input on what they think are the strengths and what they feel are, you know, the areas that they need to grow. So I think that's a part of building that capacity. I think the other thing in terms of student success, student success is definitely influenced by leadership. So because typically, there is a directive that the leadership may be giving or an initiative that they're working on, and their team is typically the educators, and the educators are there to support the implementation, and that then impacts student success. So the buy in of the team is very important, because that directly impacts student success.

Amy Vujaklija: 29:33

You talk about student first. So what does being student first mean as an administrator, for instance, what does the conversation look or sound like with a faculty member, a staff member? When you are a student, first administrator. So you're talking about sometimes there's that very slow movement. Of maybe tricking, you know, just kind of easing people into, like, flipping their thinking. So maybe, what does that conversation look like to help flip that thinking?

Angela Diggs: 30:12

So you mean, from being adult center to Student Center. So I think that getting their input is important. Sometimes change doesn't work because educators feel like the decision was made for them and not with them. So it's important to get their input. What do they see as some of the barriers to student success? What do they see as the successes or the things that are working? It's very important to get that their input, while also giving them some insight on the initiatives or the changes that are to come. So you have to, you have to give them some information so they have an understanding of what they're working with, and and and again, allow them to have some input on what that's going to look like. That's very important. I think when we don't get teachers input, that's where we go wrong, because they are a part of the team. They're part of the implementation process. So you know, if we're making decisions and we're not doing it with with their input in mind. That's where the misstep comes in. And so again, I think it's important to kind of lay out here's where we would like to go with all of us having a part in that. But we do need to understand where, where you see the barriers, where you see the successes, and how we can work together to create a system that's going to be best for students.

Joi Patterson: 31:46

So through your your lived experience and your observation of other leaders, what have you seen as the impact of bad leadership to be a tell off story.

Angela Diggs: 32:04

Oh, it really could be. We're going to keep it rated, yes, yes, yes, we're going to keep it rated G, but um, bad leadership, I will say, has profound impacts on the team and which then impacts students so but I'll focus on the team and say that. I'll give an example of communication. If a team feels like that, there is not good communication from their leader that can lead to poor communication within the workplace, which can then lead to gossip, which can then lead to less trust, you know, toxic relationships and things like that. So that's just an example of how poor communication from a leader can then impact their team. And another example would be just general professionalism. So if, if I'm seeing that there are no structures in place for just general professionalism, then you may have people come to work late. You know, you have people half doing tasks or allowing deadlines to lapse. So it's that kind of thing that then impacts the team. If I am not making a big deal on what our initiatives are, then there's increased mediocrity. There's less effort to be to be my best, if I don't feel like you are making an effort to relate to me and seeing me as a human and a hard working educator that is trying so hard to educate these students, then I don't see you as reliable. I may go to other leaders that I think are better than you to get my answers, even though they're not my direct supervisor. And so those are just examples of how that leadership can lead to bad practices. So just those are just some some of the examples of ways that that could happen.

Amy Vujaklija: 34:14

And I am sure that some of the bad leadership may come from the pressures placed on administration. I mean, we know, like with test scores and with teacher shortages, there are so many pressures placed on administrators. How does that trickle down? What are, what might be some of those pressures, and how might that trickle down to the teachers and the school support personnel?

Angela Diggs: 34:46

There are a lot of pressures in the school setting there. There absolutely are. There are pressures that you know, to maintain a high ranking, get a higher ranking. There are pressure. Teachers to hire the most qualified staff, teacher retention, trying to keep your staff so that they don't go elsewhere. The following year, there's a lot of pressure in a lot of different areas, and that that is very hard for administrators. You're you're trying to keep the staff you have every single year, that is difficult because there is a shortage, and it's really been different. And I know a lot of us say this, like after COVID, but it is true, like it did change a lot of things. And so if sometimes, when educators feel burnt out or they don't feel appreciated, they will look and go elsewhere. And that does become difficult, because there it is hard to hire fine, recruit qualified educators. And when I say qualified, I mean that have, you know, all the background and credentials needed for certain positions, the workload, the deadlines that typically come from the state level, it does require a lot of work, a lot of heavy lifting, and so sometimes in leadership, what you find Is that you will sometimes have administrators doing multiple jobs. You know, it's that whole idea of being a jack of all trades and a master of none. Because, you know, everybody has to take on a little bit of something, right in order to make the train keep moving.

Joi Patterson: 36:36

Yeah, I want to add to that Doctor Amy, one of the things that I find, especially in those situations, is that you go into emergency mode, yes, and as leaders, and sometimes even if you've been a parent, as parents, you know, and things like that, you go into emergency mode. And we know when we go into emergency mode in any situation that mishap is going to happen. Yes, and when you a constant flux of emergencies, or what you view as emergencies, this is what's going to happen. Every day. There's going to be Miss thefts. Every day, you know you're in emergency mode. We've seen it with some of our partnering schools. The principal is in the classroom, yes, because they don't have, you know, so addressing the emergency instead of strategically addressing the bigger problem. And now the principal can't even run the school on a day to day, because the principal is in the classroom. And how can you go to the principal for any help? Yes, when the principal is not even available to you. So it's really operating in that emergency mode that gets us in trouble, and the meatier your school is we find ourselves operating in those molds. So we have to find a way of how to operate outside of that and more strategically. But I want to, I just wanted to give an overview, kind of your chapters, because I'm writing, helping you write this book, and someone I

Angela Diggs: 38:07

appreciate it that has been something I've been thinking about. So you gotta write

Joi Patterson: 38:11

it, because this is what I got, and it's like a chapter for each one of these. And this has been so good, I'm sure, not just for our listeners, but it's been good for me, Doctor Angela, so here's some of the things that I learned. I mean, just because you're the leader doesn't necessarily mean you're correct. You know, you don't have, oh, have all the correct answers, all the right answers. And therefore, we also need to rely on the people around us, including delegate, on how to delegate, and the other things we talk you talked about is being personable is such a very great skill. And having humility again, just because you're the boss does not make you the boss of everyone. You're just a boss in your mind. And having humility could go a really long way to always be a learner and to always to grow be open, open to other ideas, regardless of where those ideas come from. And students first, and I think that's most important of knowing who you work for, who the beneficiaries are. And we can get caught up, and I'm guilty of this too, we can get caught up sometimes in the things that we want to do and miss out on the things that we're supposed to be doing. That sound familiar? Amy, yes indeed. But we also have to be mindful, not just of our own mental awareness, but those around us, because when we talk about getting an emergency mode, we're putting pressure on other people. We're putting pressure on. Teachers, we're putting pressure on principals. We're putting pressure on the students. And so mental awareness is very, very, very important. And then taking small steps, you know, taking those small steps to reach that goal of doing these things in increment, not just jumping in, saying, This is wrong, this is broken. We're going to change that. But if you have to be you can use the word manipulative or whatever. It's more strategic. And getting to where you want to, these have to be done in incremental stuff, because if you go slow enough along the way, you're going to find how to better implement this and then getting input and then the reliability. So those are your chapters. That's what I learned from today.

Angela Diggs: 40:55

I appreciate everything you said, and you just summarized it perfectly. One of the things I want to add that I often say is that, as a leader, if you think you're the smartest person in the room, or you are the smartest person in the room, you need to get out that room. Mm, hmm. Are not in the right room. You are. You are absolutely not in the right room. If you think or you are the smartest person in the room? Yeah. The The other thing is that, you know, when you speak about emergency mode, and that is that's such, such a correct depiction of the teacher shortage, right? You have a, you can have three teachers call off, off of work on the Friday, and it completely changes what the building looks like, because it's like everybody kind of has to help to make sure that those classrooms have educators, possibly for that day, depending on how your school is functioning. And so that does impact, again, student success, because what are students learning? You know what I mean when it comes to those shortages, and how does that impact students? Is something that we have to think about. So Student Success should always be at the forefront. And then the last thing I was going to say, as you were summarizing, was, it is hard I know when, when again, kind of going back to coming in new and wanting to assert ourselves as the leader, and this is how I do things. I have to say, I know, and I've seen it. It's very hard for a new leader to come in and go slow. It is. It's very hard because, again, it's very important for you to, you know, I want you to know it's me. It's not the other person, you know, I'm in charge, but at the end of the day, when you think about your end game, it's going to have more of a positive impact. Again, when you pay attention to his to the historical context, and you learn from your team.

Amy Vujaklija: 42:59

So I want to add to that too, or there are some pieces that I want to put together here that you have said, the communication and the students first, that clear communication and that transparency is so important because I've worked for an administrator who said we need to do XYZ, and didn't get a clear understanding of why. But as soon as the why was explained, it made sense, yes, we were all on that why. We were pushing it up the hill. And you know, we would do anything because it was clearly communicated, students will benefit if we do this. Yes, so yes, clear, transparent communication with those students first is so valuable. It is, do you have any last nuggets for us? Because, well, we've already practically written a book. I I definitely think we've had so many nuggets today. It because it's, it's just been a joy talking to you. Thank you so

Angela Diggs: 44:22

much. So yeah, there are a few things I would like to share. I joke, but I'm serious when I do, tell people that I am a recovering perfectionist. So that's been a thing that, and I'm sure, you know, a lot of educators deal with that in terms of, you know, always wanting to do things correctly and and all of that. But I will say that I'm constantly trying to remind myself that Perfection isn't real, and I really haven't learned a whole lot from trying to be perfect, you know. So what I've learned has pretty much been for any time that you know, I. Had that misstep, or there was that gap where somebody said, Hey, well, when we go from this step to this step, I think we missed something in the middle. Those are the things that I've learned from not trying to lose sleep and think of every single thing and so just wanting people to remember that it's okay to take missteps, because how else do you learn if you don't, if it doesn't happen that way? So you have to be okay with that. And I will say again, I'm in a new role now. So that's something that that I'm like actively in the moment, learning, because I have been for a long time, used to doing things for mostly correctly, and so this has been a journey for me to remind myself that okay, it's it's okay, because in the end, it's going to be a better system because of all these things I'm learning along the way. Just, you know, leaders keeping that in mind, I encourage my women leaders to delegate more and apologize less. I think that that is something that we as women often struggle with, myself included and again, kind of taking that step back for a year, I saw, I heard a lot of stories, but it wasn't from people that didn't look they didn't look like all of us. They they looked different. They were men. They were not apologizing. It was the women doing a lot of the apologizing and for things that were outside of their control. So I think we'd have to, let's reserve our apologies for things that we need to apologize for, not for things that we cannot control. And then again, like I said, delegating more. And I think that people often wonder, like, what do educators want? No educators, they don't like to be micromanaged, but they do like clear direction and clear vision from the person that is supervising them. They really do like clear direction. They like to know where we're going. They like to know when the deadline is. Even though people don't like to be like I said, micromanage, they do want to know, just as you mentioned, Dr Amy, where we're going with this? Yes, you you were told the end game, but you weren't told the rationale, why? Once you knew the rationale, why you were all in so again, that clear direction is really important to a team, and also being fair is important to a team. Having a leader with integrity is important.

Amy Vujaklija: 47:43

I think that was the concluding chapter.

Joi Patterson: 47:47

Yeah, absolutely. And you will have an opportunity to listen to the podcast and take notes, Dr Angela, and hopefully this will be inspirational to you as well. But really, because we've learned an enormous amount more than I could have gathered through reading 10 chapters in a book. And so I've really taken a lot of as a leader. Of you know, I've been in this for 30 years in leadership role, and yet I got a lot out of this conversation today. So thank you for that. Yes. Thank you, Peter, because of you.

Angela Diggs: 48:25

Thank you.

Amy Vujaklija: 48:27

Thank you for listening to teaching and leading with Dr Amy and Dr Joi. Visit our website at G, O, v, s, t.edu/teaching, and leading podcast. To see the show notes from this episode,

Joi Patterson: 48:45

we appreciate Governor State University's work behind the scenes to make publishing possible. Stay tuned for more episodes with Dr Amy and Dr Joi.