Embracing Neurodiversity with Nichelle Cook

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Neurodiversity, developmental disabilities, inclusive education, ADHD, autism spectrum, twice exceptional, self-advocacy, reasonable accommodations, intersectionality, hyperfocus, imposter syndrome, teacher preparation, collaboration, practical strategy, wraparound services.

SPEAKERS

Nichelle Cook, Amy Vujaklija, Joi Patterson

Nichelle Cook: 00:03

Just learning that it's okay to be you. It's okay to have quirks. There are people who love the person that you are, just as you are, and don't change.

Amy Vujaklija: 00:13

Welcome to our podcast, teaching and leading with Dr Amy and Dr Joi. I am Dr Amy Vujaklija, Director of educator preparation, and I am

: 00:26

Dr Joi Patterson, Chief Diversity Officer. Our podcast addresses issues through the lens of Diversity Equity and Inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow as educators.

Amy Vujaklija: 00:39

So join us on our journey to become better teachers and leaders. So let's get into it. Good morning. Dr Joi,

Nichelle Cook: 00:50

good morning. Dr Amy, you know, March is developmental disability month,

Amy Vujaklija: 00:56

yes, and we have so many events planned this month, and especially today, we have a special honor and a special guest with

Nichelle Cook: 01:07

us. Absolutely. You know, one of the things about developmental disabilities, I see it as the unseen disability, and so I think it's important that we're having this conversation. I think that it's important that we're giving the attention that we're giving to it, because at least 12% of our employees and 11% of our students have developmental disabilities. So it's important that we know how to better communicate with them, better serve them, and just better connect.

Amy Vujaklija: 01:41

And so many of our students and faculty and staff go unidentified by the campus, so it might be a larger percentage,

Nichelle Cook: 01:51

absolutely, you know some employers, you know they may shy away from individuals with disabilities. But what we've learned that there's no liability, there's no extra cost, and actually we benefit when we hire people with disabilities. So I'm glad that we're having this conversation today, and I can't wait to talk to our guests. Well, let

Amy Vujaklija: 02:15

me introduce our guest. Ms Michelle Cook is an educator, licensed attorney, social entrepreneur and neurodiversity disability advocate with 15 years of experience in removing barriers that impede learners from reaching their potential, as owner and principal of excellence centered consulting, she designs engaging and developmentally appropriate programs and materials and supports instruction that caters to various learning styles, backgrounds and exceptionalities. Ms Cook is also the founder and CEO of practiceg educational services, a nonprofit organization responsible for the governance and fiscal oversight of practice G Preparatory School, launching in Fall 2025 prepped by practicing supplemental education and ancillary programming, including the neurodivergent project, Let me stress urgent developed to further the mission of making excellence in education more accessible to all. Nichelle is a proud alumni of Spelman College with a BA in Political Science, Xavier University of La with an MA in educational leadership and supervision and an MA in curriculum and instruction and Loyola University, New Orleans College of Law with the JD. In addition to nichelle's ongoing professional pursuits, she currently studies clinical psychology with a specialization in neuropsychology. Nichelle identifies herself as neurodivergent and is here with us to discuss more on this topic. Welcome to our podcast

Nichelle Cook: 04:06

now. How is that for being neuro divergent? So beyond the introduction and all these wonderful things that Dr Amy just shared, Michelle, can you please share with us more about yourself? And then I also want you to share about your neuro divergent and tell me how that's been maybe a barrier for you, but also, more importantly, how you've been able to excel.

Nichelle Cook: 04:36

Well, thank you for having me. First of all, thanks to both of you. I'd like to start by saying everything I hated about myself as a neurodivergent individual, undiagnosed turned into everything I love about my calling after being diagnosed and having the resources and supports necessary for me to thrive. And so that's just kind. To my statement any time this question is asked. And I also want to say that thriving despite disabilities is not uncommon. There are several people, and I'd venture to argue that anyone can thrive in certain areas despite certain barriers, if given the proper support. And so when I say everything, it turned into everything I love about my calling, what I mean is I having endured what I endured, not knowing I have the capacity to empower people to see past their disabilities and help other people to see past them, so that we can get to the strength and restore confidence and ultimately help society to be better.

Amy Vujaklija: 05:52

I love what you say about thriving. Now. Could you explain more about neurodiversity? Are we even using the term correctly? What is neurodiversity in relationship to the autism spectrum, for instance? So

Nichelle Cook: 06:09

neurodiversity is a term coined by Judy singer, Dr singer, excuse me, I'm a sociologist out of Australia. She coined the term to really suggest that everyone it's a social term. So it's not in the DSM five. You're not going to find it as a disorder, contrary to popular belief. But what it is is a social term to explain the idea that all of our brains function differently, and the diversity piece is about being excited about that, and so reframing the way that we look at the human brain and our society and society's ability to be malleable so that everybody's brain is is appreciated. Now, when you talk about neuro divergent and and you talk about diverging from what is typically considered the norm, that's when we get into the autism spectrum disorders, which is just what it suggests a spectrum. And so when people talk about ASD, which is what is commonly known as, they tend to say the spectrum word to to really embrace the fact that not all autism looks alike. So it's not monolithic, and we have to appreciate that, because there are no one size fits all solutions to how we accommodate those individuals. And so you can be autistic and be non verbal, but that doesn't necessarily mean that your intellect is in any way impacted by that, however, you can be on the autism spectrum and also have a lack of what we call the theory of mind function, and what that is, is the ability to read social cues. And so there are lots of people who may say things out of turn, may see people react to them a certain way, and they don't really understand why. That's because they lack that ability to read those things in society. And so there are a plethora of ways that we frame it, and I do want to distinct, distinguish that intellect and cognitive ability is separate from autism itself, and so that is also on a continuum. And so we can't say that just because a person has, for example, people with Asperger's have high levels of cognitive ability, but they also have the theory of mind challenges and some other unique challenges. But if you can identify that thing that they flourish in, then they can do those things in a way that is uncommonly amazing, and so we just have to really be cognizant of the diversity of our brains and create a society that is welcoming of said diversity.

Amy Vujaklija: 09:36

I want to follow up on that, and it might actually lead into what Joi wants to ask about your perception others, perception of you, but what was it that the diagnosis led to, as far as thriving and having the support and resources? What made the difference between an. Diagnosed and diagnosed when you said, now everything I hated about myself now I thrive because of those qualities. So

Nichelle Cook: 10:10

now I'm going to get into Professor Kimberly crenshaw's intersectionality. And so when I think about how I present to the world. I'm an African American woman. I'm also an attorney, which I tend to not tell people, because I like for and that's trauma associated as well as I'm used to being underestimated. I can't present as a black woman no matter how well I dress, no matter how many degrees I get I'm still black, and that's the first thing people see. And so the way that I experienced being undiagnosed with, you know, ADHD, inattentive type and and also I'm, I don't know it's I'm disclosing a little more than I prepared to, but I have ADHD, I have anxiety, and I also struggle with major depressive disorder, and so all those things work together to make it a struggle. But with being an African American child, I understood that from my small town of Kent wood, Louisiana, shout out to Kent wood. If I were to have been identified as neuro divergent or a person with ADHD, then I couldn't possibly be gifted in the eyes of the general public. And if I were to have been identified as a very academically capable young lady or gifted or whatnot, then I couldn't possibly have an issue, because the idea of being twice exceptional, which is the formal term for that, it was unheard of, and it remains unheard of In a lot of spaces and a lot of teacher preparation programs, they don't talk about twice exceptionality you either in Spain or you're not. And so I'm grateful that I did not have my diagnosis, even though it would have been beneficial, because I would have been labeled. And so I think that a diagnosis without treatment is nothing more than a label, but a diagnosis with treatment is transformative, and so being that I came from my small town with limited resources, had I had my teachers given me formal accommodations and had they labeled me, I wouldn't have had the I would have Been doing coloring sheets when everybody else was doing algebra. And so now that I do have so I had to struggle. I had to have the low self esteem. I had to be that scatterbrained, smart kid, that nobody I had to be Urkel, the klutz, the weird kid I had. And as a result of that, I got bullied and so but going through all of that, you have to pick your battles. Had I been diagnosed, I would have been the slow, sped kid in in self contained, which I call solitary confinement, almost like that's what it feels like. You got that, that class of kids on the quote, unquote short bus like that's what I would have been. And so I had to struggle. I had to go through the Depression, all of that, because to not do that is to not get any opportunities and any chance to show my gifts and talents. And that may not be the case for people in more affluent, larger communities that are not necessarily labeled upon being seen. I'm a little too melanated to have an early diagnosis work in my favor, if that makes sense.

Amy Vujaklija: 13:57

Yeah, thank you for that.

Nichelle Cook: 13:58

Well, we certainly like your double exceptionality, and thank you for sharing and trusting us with some personal information. I think this next one is really going to be a little personal too, because in your writings, you talked about being labeled as weird, and you kind of alluded to that. In fact, last year you were at a conference and you present it weird was the name they gave me. So how do you navigate the space and help others advocate for themselves?

Nichelle Cook: 14:34

Thank you so much for that question for all of the hip hop heads that may be listening where it was the name they gave me was a playoff of murder. Was the case they gave me because of the the storytelling and the twists and turns and all of that stuff that went on, and so I was thinking about the twist. Turns that my life took. And, you know, in one setting I'm the brilliant kid. In another setting, I'm the Urkel, and in another setting, I'm the kid who everybody's mom wants them to be like, but I'm the also the kid that none of the boys want to date. And so, you know, it's just you, you learn how to mask certain aspects of the neuro divergent symptoms and the ones that we can't mask, we start to to hate ourselves for, because it's like, why can't I be organized? Why can't I remember things? Why can't I make myself do what I need to do? But also, and that brings me to another point. A lot of people think that ADHD means you lack the ability to pay attention. Nothing could be further from the truth, you lack the ability to choose what you pay attention to. And that distinction is huge, because a lot of times I am hyper focused, because, you know, the by virtue of the dopamine shortage, which is so my prefrontal cortex isn't giving what it's supposed to give, in terms of the ability to focus and the ability to have impulse control. And so I could be walking to the kitchen saying I'm gonna go and get a drink of water. And before I get there, I noticed that I was supposed to do laundry, and then I stopped to do that, and then I'm like, oh, shoot, I was going to the kitchen for something, but I don't remember, and then the phone rings, and then there's something else. And then I realized that because I was on the phone, I didn't hear the notification that said I was supposed to be in a meeting, and that's my life. And so you have to kind of put buffers in place and to close I don't want to to stick on this question too long, but I think about a car with the wrong owner's manual, and I think that that analogy kind of fits my situation. And so be before the diagnosis, I'd read the owner's manual try to figure out how my brain worked. But then I realized, you know, when I do that, it doesn't quite work out like that. So if I read all of the information, and I'm prepared to write my paper, and I've done everything, I can't, because my brain works faster than my pen, and so I get a blank page, even though I have a million ideas, whereas somebody who is what we would call neurotypical is able to read and actually digest it and write it may take but when I do get my ideas out, they're profound. And so I was almost afraid to take praise for the moments when my brain worked the way I felt was correct, because I couldn't guarantee that I could replicate that. Because if you catch me on a day when my brain says, Try again, then I'm out of luck. And so you began to not even be able to celebrate your wins, but my diagnosis was the manual that actually fit my brain, and so I'm reading through it and saying, Oh, wow. So there are features that I didn't even know I had, and if I press this button, it actually does what it's supposed to do. And and so that gave me more confidence. But still, you know, bad habits are hard to break, and so I have a lot of things that I am trying to unlearn about how to love myself and how to embrace other people that I am used to, you know, shunning me, and so I have to learn how to pick my company wisely.

Joi Patterson: 19:07

So I think a follow up to that, yes,

Amy Vujaklija: 19:09

I think a lot of people, yeah, would be able to relate to this owner's manual concept. That analogy is so fitting I really like, and

: 19:18

I'm sure a lot of people are thinking about themselves and other people that they know, and they said, Oh, that's it, but just follow. You've had time, you've navigated this, and you've gone through your childhood and now your adulthood. You've learned how to navigate this, and I'm sure you're still learning, and you've also had the opportunity to do a lot of research. So knowing what you know now, what would you say to that 15 year old Nichelle, that middle school or that middle school Nichelle, Dr Amy and I are middle school teachers. And what would you say to that middle school Nichelle.

Nichelle Cook: 19:59

Know, I would say, even if you forget your lip gloss, you didn't forget your brain. And that is something you know, having forgotten my makeup bag somewhere in Louisiana, this speaks to me right now, and the 15 year old me I had to kind of gather myself this morning and say You are worthy. And a lot of people, they kind of the concept of imposter syndrome is so it's used so frequently that the term of art is kind of just cliche at this point. But for me, it's like, Am I worthy to to really speak on these things? What if, you know, my PowerPoint isn't right? What if they, and I thought about it, I said, you know, they invited me because of my brain, and I didn't forget that I have it with me. And so whether I forget my lip gloss or my makeup or whatever, the most important thing I have is, is my faith, of course, and that that's something I hold very dear, and the brain that got me invited in the first place, and so that gave me the the introspective pep talk that I needed to present here today, despite the neuro divergent tendencies to be all over the place,

Amy Vujaklija: 21:27

everyone needs to feel as though they are worthy. And you're right. We all have our brains with

: 21:34

us. I would definitely tell my 15 year old self, also, if you know how you are. Try to plan when you're in hyper focus mode. Pre plan a lot of things if you know you're gonna forget something. Focus. Do it if, if it's a if you're supposed to be writing and you just so happen to get the urge to clean up, don't fight it, just do what you need to do, set a timer. So time blocking is something that I would but more importantly, just learning that it's okay to be you, it's okay to have quirks. There are people who love the person that you are, just as you are, and don't change, don't overcompensate. Just understand that what you bring to the table is necessary.

Amy Vujaklija: 22:25

I want to shift a little bit into the adult Nichelle and what you've learned, what have you seen as some of employers greatest or largest concerns when it comes to disabilities in the workplace, well,

Nichelle Cook: 22:44

I mean disability that that's a loaded term, and so it just really depends on what the disability is and what the nature of the job is, and whether or not they are able to afford reasonable accommodations, which by law, they're mandated to do by the ADA and several other laws. And so I think that people underestimate the power of just listening to the individual to figure out what they need. And so what you think may be a large hurdle maybe something simple, and everybody is an expert at themselves. We know who we are, and we know what our quirks are, and so I think that a lot of employers get it wrong because they jump the gun without actually working alongside the employee to figure out how they can produce their best quality work, because I don't think anybody wants to fail. And so if they feel like they have camaraderie with their employer, then they're willing to say, Wait a minute. You know, perhaps 9am may not be a good start time for me, because I take my medication and it throws off my circadian rhythm, and I can't really sleep when I'm supposed to, like it throws off everything, but if you let me come in at 10, I'll stay an hour late, and I'll get it all done, but I I tend to just go into hyper focus, like you have to preload I even preload emails. So if I'm if it's a Saturday, and my brain just says, work, get it all done, and I'm presetting for like, 806807 emails. So it doesn't look obvious, but I know how to work with my brain now. And so for a lot of employees, they that that are not diagnosed, they don't know how to work with themselves. They just know, for whatever reason, I can't do the and then also the worst thing to say to a person who is neuro. Urgent is, don't tell me you can't. It's gaslighting, even though people don't realize it, because, literally, they can't. But that doesn't mean they can't do something else, but that thing that they're telling you they can't do, there's a reason they're saying they can't, because you can't, I mean, and it's near when it comes to neurodiversity, it's neurochemical in nature. And so for me, for example, the dopamine shortage. I am attracted to sparkly things because it gives me a dopamine rush. It's a reward, and I'm gonna be zoned into that thing at the expense of all others, and I can't shift gears. So if you say, if I'm writing a grant, for example, and somebody taps me on the shoulder and said, I just need five minutes of your time, and then you can go back to it, I can't do that, because that five minutes, if it's something that is less grueling than this grant I'm writing. My brain wants to do that and continue to do that at the expense of what I'm supposed to be doing. And so I know there are certain things that when I'm in the zone leave me alone. I can't shift. It's not because I don't want to. I just can't. And so, yeah, that that's probably the thing I would say.

: 26:25

Thank you. You know, you mentioned that the word disability, I mean, that's really, really broad. In fact, as I was preparing for today, and I said, Oh, I need a logo. I had to reject, like, three, four logos. Like, no, that's not developmental disability. It doesn't look and then I say, just give me people. You know, it doesn't need to look like any particular person. Just give me people, because, you know, it's all the diverse people. And when we talk about developmental disabilities, a lot of times, these are disabilities that don't get accommodations, or, you know, when you're in elementary school or high school, you don't have an IEP, and so when you get to college, and any support that you may have, if You had support, that support is not following you. And so what would you say to university professors that have students and we do have students for our students that have neurodivergent disabilities, and how we support them?

Nichelle Cook: 27:39

So first off, I'd like to make a distinction between IEPs and 504 plans, because IEPs are limited to K 12 education, whereas section 504 of the rehabilitation act of 1973 is for all people. And so when we're in higher ed, a lot of people tend to dismiss and we see that in the criminal justice system as well, like, Yeah, we don't have to deal with you once you become an adult. And then there are also certain disorders that don't have an adult equivalent, like oppositional defined disorder, for example. And so once you hit that age of majority, so to speak, then there's no recourse, there's no support. And I would say to people, if you knew that you it all comes down to self advocacy and support. So if you notice that a person had accommodations in K 12, then when they get to college, of course, you can't put it on the application because it it can create prejudice. But once they get in, when that that email, however you guys do, it comes around and they ask, what supports do you need? Did you ever be transparent? There are protections. Do not send your medical information via email to the teachers, the professors. They don't need that. They need accommodation sheets from the proper office. So understand how your your school's administration works as it relates to accommodations, and be transparent with the people that because you're protected by FERPA. And so understand that the distinction between FERPA and HIPAA is ferpa's education, HIPAA is healthcare, but in certain instances, you may be protected by both, if it's a clinic at the school. And so just understand that the law works in your favor as it relates to getting the help that you need if you follow the proper protocol. There's a reason why they want you to talk to certain people and not others, because that information in the wrong hands can hurt you. And I also have a saying for the. Book that that I wrote that has yet to be published because the ADHD Amy can't focus enough to finish it, but there's a quote that that I wrote that said vulnerability is only strengthen the presence of Love, but outside of that, it's a gut punch ready to rear its ugly head at the most inopportune time and the most inconvenient places. And so make sure that when you decide to be vulnerable, you are in the presence of Love. Otherwise it puts you in a situation where you are, you know, it's a gut punch waiting to happen. So be cognizant of that and be discerning. I

Amy Vujaklija: 30:41

think that's really important for professors to know that it takes a lot of vulnerability and that students need to be in the presence of Love in order to make themselves vulnerable,

Nichelle Cook: 30:55

absolutely and even in the way that people carry out accommodation sheets. This is not a do what you want to type deal. We have to implement accommodations with fidelity. I was an adjunct professor for four years on the undergraduate level, and during that time, I got several accommodation sheets. And given my background and my personal experience and not having the opportunity to have accommodations because I didn't know what my disorder was, I saw it as a an imperative that I implemented exactly the way that the professionals told me to I also know several people who and all of their genius, quote, unquote, they decide to do it their way, and that may or may not be beneficial, and then also, by no fault of their own, a lot of people have trouble differentiating instruction without it being readily apparent to the entire class that this person has an exceptionality, and so there's an art and a science to it, that I think that we need to do a better job on the higher ed level of teaching. We don't really do a good job, to be honest, as a society, in teacher education programs, but it is really an issue at the at the collegiate level, because a lot of college professors are scholars who happen to teach, as opposed to teachers who happen to be engaged in scholarship. And so that's, you know, just something we need to work on.

Amy Vujaklija: 32:41

You brought up teacher education, so I want to go there. How does being an educator and an attorney help you advocate, and what would you say about the K 12 teacher education or educator preparation programs, and how they can be better prepared to be advocates for people with disabilities?

Nichelle Cook: 33:04

You know, that's a great question, especially now I think that the entire nation is vulnerable. I mean, I guess the jury's still out on whether or not we're in the presence of Love. And following my definition earlier, you can kind of figure out that wherever you decide that we fit, you know what the recourse is, and so that's the best way I can say that. But I think that having been in a lot of different rooms and having a gumbo pot of a career, if you will, I've seen how different people work in silos, and I'm actually having a conference soon, shameless plug this summer, to break the silos. That's what the whole neurodivergent is about. You know, breaking the silence in silos so that we can collaborate, because I don't think that you can have effective wraparound services unless you have collaborative planning and an appreciation for different people's scope of practice and scope of expertise and how these they work together. And I think that as a society, we don't really do a good job of working alongside our colleagues collaboratively to plan. And so the name proctor G, a lot of people stumble over it, but I'm going to give some context for where the name came from, practical and strategy put together. And what I realized when I decided to launch my consulting firm was, well, I guess, non profit organization. It started off as a consulting name, and then I decided it was better suited for my nonprofit work. But the practice G name is because we have to be practical, but we also have to be strategic, and most people are not. Most of the practical people don't have a strategy. Strategy, and a lot of strategic people are not practical, and because we don't often put those two together, we can't come up with solutions that are actually able to be implemented in a way that yields benefits to society at large, or at least sustainable benefits in a cost effective manner.

Joi Patterson: 35:23

This has been outstanding. Michelle, thank you for talking to us, not just about disabilities, but different abilities and how we can best serve and how we can best work together. Thank you. This has been extremely enlightening.

Amy Vujaklija: 35:39

Thank you for listening to teaching and leading with Dr Amy and Dr Joi. Visit our website at G, O, v, s, t.edu/teaching, and leading podcast to see the show notes from this episode.

Joi Patterson: 35:56

We appreciate Governor State University's work behind the scenes to make publishing possible. Stay tuned for more episodes with Dr Amy and Dr Joi.