Blending Passion, Research, and Teaching: A Podcast Journey with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

International Women's Day, podcast, teaching and learning, diversity equity inclusion, remote teaching, Facebook Live, educator voices, Governor State University, teacher shortage, mentoring program, professional development, narrative, research, career change, passion.

SPEAKERS

Joi Patterson, Debbie James, Amy Vujaklija

Amy Vujaklija: 00:03

Blending all of the things I love, reading, researching, teaching, that's what I would encourage people to do, is make time for those fashions. This episode was originally released under the podcast titled teaching and learning theory versus practice. This rebooted episode has been migrated to teaching and leading with Dr Amy and Dr Joi I am Dr Amy Vujaklija, Director of educator preparation, and I

Joi Patterson: 00:36

am Dr Joi Patterson, Chief Diversity Officer, our podcast addresses issues through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow as educators. So

Amy Vujaklija: 00:51

join us on our journey to become better teachers and leaders. So let's get into it.

Debbie James: 01:00

Welcome to International Women's Day at Governor State University. So when the pandemic came to Illinois in spring of 2020, many faculty members began working out of their home, and this put a pause on the daily hallway conversation where faculty share ideas resources, but also where we as teachers discuss problems and look for solutions to help our students, Dr Joi and Dr Amy would not be deterred, and took their conversation from the hallway and into a podcast. Today I'm speaking with Dr Joi Patterson and Dr Amy Vujaklija, who co host Governor State University podcast series, teaching and learning theory versus practice. Dr Joi and Dr Amy, why start a podcast?

Amy Vujaklija: 01:53

Well, you said it. Dr James, we had these Hallway Conversations and when the pandemic hit, we were home, we couldn't see each other every day. And in May, we had a Facebook Live event, and a student teacher interviewed us about remote teaching and learning in preparation for going into remote student teaching experiences. We had fun. We thought, why don't we interview people? And it just started going from there.

Joi Patterson: 02:33

Yeah, absolutely. Amy and I, our offices are just a few steps away. So we were so accustomed to seeing each other on a regular basis, and whenever we saw each other, we would have these think outside of the box conversations of how we're going to save the world today, how we're going to improve education, who we're going to connect with, and we were both very much part of extending into that local community, working with other school districts and the community at large, and how we put this together. And so it was clear that when the pandemic hit, we were missing that we did not want to fall behind. So again, as Doctor Amy said, this started with that Facebook Live session of us talking about remote learning, because we knew that people were really, really hurting, and then that catapult us to the podcast. So we started doing this because we did feel that we wanted to continue to make that same contribution that we were making before, and we wanted to talk with educators, and we use educator broadly, right? Amy, we use that broadly in their respective expertise, from teachers to psychologists to to parents, to discuss challenges and solutions.

Amy Vujaklija: 03:55

Something else I want to say about that is I felt rather inadequate during that Facebook Live event. I didn't have the answers, but I knew other people did, and I thought, wouldn't it be better if we sought other people's perspectives, their knowledge, their expertise, and talk to them and highlighted what they had to say? We are always reading and researching, but often not really contributing. So that became a platform for us to bring someone on the show. We could learn. Other people could learn. It just elevated the educators voices. So I think that inadequacy of us being the ones that interviewed was part of it.

Joi Patterson: 04:44

Yeah, yeah. I also want to add Doctor James, is that we really wanted to bring attention to GSU. I have a graduate degree from GSU. We won't talk about how long ago that was, but GSU has a way of embracing you and. It allows us to explore. It allowed us to do this podcast. So it allows us to expand where we are. So we wanted to bring attention to GSU, and we also wanted to elevate our profession. We know that there are many challenges within our profession, and we talk about those challenges all the time, but we also know that there are solutions. And we wanted to talk to people who had solutions. I

Debbie James: 05:24

want to talk about the pillars, and we've talked a little bit about this before the show, but it sounds to me when you mentioned your experience with a little bit of inadequacy at the Facebook Live, even though you years of experience. Dr Joi, you have 25 years in the field. Dr Amy, how many years have you had teaching

Amy Vujaklija: 05:44

in the field? Right? I taught middle school for 10 years. A year of high school came to DSU. I mean, my fifth year at Governor state

Debbie James: 05:54

and but you still had the opportunity and realized we're able to identify sort of these catalyst moment specific moment. So you went, I don't know this, so I want to ask you a question, because this is something that I think really interesting. At some point in the process of actually producing and serving as CO hosts, you seem to have had something of an aha moment. So what? What a what sparked this transformation and and how have, how do you think this has sort of changed you and your approach to teaching and learning? I

Amy Vujaklija: 06:31

don't know about Dr Joi, but I can pinpoint the exact time when I realized that we were contributing as voices ourselves, and not just as a platform for other people's voices. We were interviewing Gerard McClendon, and he is getting ready to take a sabbatical. He's working on the book, a huge research project. Towards the end of the conversation, he said, I'd like for you to do some writing with me. We just interviewed this professional who's written a book, who has another book, who is doing this huge research project, and he wanted our insights, our contribution, that flipped a switch for me. I didn't see myself as a contributor. I wanted to bring people on the show who knew more than I did. But in some way, maybe it's the questions we were asking, or the way we were processing what he had to say, or the interactions that we all had together provided a space for him to say, Hey, join me in this project. It's happened a few times since then, and each time we're asked to do something like that, I'm blown away, because this wasn't the original goal, but it started to feel like, wait a minute, I have a voice. I have something that other people want to hear or to read. There's something here. There's something different about this podcast that became a value added Uh huh piece for me. What about you? Doctor Joi, I

Joi Patterson: 08:14

felt that it had value at the earlier stage when people were accepting the invitation. Amy and I, outside of hosting, we have these different roles. Amy likes to do a lot of the behind the scenes, technical stuff, and I do a lot of the preparation. So I actually do the administrative work of inviting, finding and inviting people. And we invite people such as Doctor John Marie and Doctor Debbie Joi, and these are renowned figures, and, you know, and many, many more, and they say yes, like they said yes to us. They want to make a contribution. They want to talk to us. You know, who are we? So that's when I knew that we had value. When they accept the invitation, and then when they say thank you, and they are so very thankful. We even have cards. I have cards here, people that say, Thank you for having me on the show. So then I knew that we had value. And then you also get the follow up emails and phone calls from people that say, Oh, I listened to this podcast, and it really helped me in this situation.

Debbie James: 09:25

So already, not only are you bringing something to your guest practice and research, but they're actually applying some of those things to their daily work. How has this impacted your research

Amy Vujaklija: 09:41

being on the tenure track, I'm always thinking about, how can I apply what service I'm doing into the classroom, but also the research component, something I was starting to do a little early on, was looking at a. The map of meaningful work as a framework. There are so many questions it's asking you to answer about how work or service or any activity or occupation brings meaning to your life. And there are so many questions that this podcast answers in a positive way. So I'm starting to think about this as a research component, that we can look at what kind of activities people can engage in that adds meaning to their lives. But there's another piece to this. It's about the narrative. It's about the stories that people are sharing with us the stories that we're trying to find in order to highlight these particular stories, because it's not just the expertise that people share often, it's their narrative and how they came to be where they are. This other research piece, it's really a scary thing. It's almost all inspiring because, like Joi said, I'm behind the scenes. We have a production manager, we have a production assistant, but I do that last listen to see how many pauses or ohms or you knows that I can take out naturally

Joi Patterson: 11:19

make it English teacher in her. That

Amy Vujaklija: 11:23

would be the English teacher in me. But there is a sense of that I have to be very careful in doing that. I can't eliminate some important, valuable words and poke away the rhythm of the conversation or change the meaning of the conversation, I have to be very careful about that, and that has that's a research piece and ethnography I want to do on my myself, to see how I'm approaching this awe inspiring, this tool in front of me, and being very respectful of people's stories.

Joi Patterson: 11:59

And for me, it's been a call for action. On a personal level, I started a foundation for scholarships to increase teachers. We know that many of those who don't pursue education is because of the expense of becoming a teacher and the expense associated with student teaching. But also at GSU, that same call to action of putting together initiatives with the local community so that we can build a pipeline, a continuous pipeline of teachers, especially teachers of color, where we are so lacking.

Debbie James: 12:37

Dr Joi, just want to follow up on that particular initiative. Where are you in the stage? And if you can tell us who you're reaching out to?

Joi Patterson: 12:46

Yeah. So we are working with about 25 local school districts, and we specifically selected title one school districts. These are school districts that are struggling to attract teachers, so they have a huge teacher shortage, especially in areas such as special education and ESL and STEM fields. So they've identified having a shortage. They've identified Having even a greater shortage of teachers of color. We've started the conversation. So we're at the point where we're looking at, what does that mo use look like that memorandum of understanding the state has now recently gotten involved to see, how can they support this work, and so that's where we are now. The goal is, here's the goals, which is beautiful, I think, because we also have a shortage of paraprofessionals, so we're going to start working at the high school level, identifying high school students who want to become teachers, creating a mentoring program for them, having teacher like activities while they're in high school, preparing them to become paraprofessionals, so out of high school, they can be hired as paraprofessionals, and while they're paraprofessionals, earning the salary, they can go through the teacher preparation program at the end of that four years or five years. Now you have teachers. So you have that them for five years as a paraprofessional, and now you have them as a teacher. And what Amy and I have learned is that with the paraprofessional population, that's where we find the most diverse, committed individuals who all live within like, a five mile radius of their schools. So it seems to have a lot of promise. It's going to be a lot of work, but it seems to have a lot of promise, but the great thing is, is that we have commitment. So that's where we're we are now, is making sure that we have the buy in at all levels. And

Amy Vujaklija: 14:50

that's something that we've addressed in a previous episode, is the buy in. We've talked to several different people about how that happens. About how initiatives happen. But one of the guests on the show, Dr Rena Witten, spoke about her district. It was a great opportunity for her to highlight the spotlight some great things that are happening in the school district, and she was praising GSU. We can talk to our partner districts and give them that space to talk about how important and valuable their community is, and hearing

Debbie James: 15:30

in your conversation not only enthusiasm, but the belief in equity, financial, economic, equity and what it takes that it really takes to support young people who want to be teachers. And I hear community being incredibly important, and how do we as faculty and you as faculty support that community? But I want to ask you a question. So last week, I had the opportunity to re listen to a couple of my favorite episodes of your podcast while I was preparing to speak with you. It reminded me of a quote of Muriel Spark, who said the word education means a leading out, a leading out of what is already there in the people's soul. So how is this extension of what is your practice and transforming into something over your readership, and these conversations lead out and lead out from your soul. As

Amy Vujaklija: 16:27

teachers, this is definitely a calling, and the more I re listen and do some of that editing, take out the email beeps or the ums or the long pauses. I am really just blown away with the way in which people are leaders in their profession, and the people we talk to have passion. We have passion as well, but I always learning other ways to elevate those other voices keep saying that, but it really is important. I know how it feels to maybe take part in an initiative, or to go to a professional development or a conference and come back really excited, and it kind of fall flat. Well, this gives some traction to people who are doing great work. We had technology people on here, and they decided they wanted to do a podcast after they were on the show, and so there might be some traction for the leadership that they are doing. And I think that's part of it is helping people get traction in their leadership roles, because we're all leaders in so many different ways. Cliche, but it takes a village, and we are all doing our part in it. I

Joi Patterson: 17:53

mean, some of the interviews, they make you feel really warm and fuzzy, and then there's some that makes you teary eyed. There's a lot that make me teary eyed. And sometimes I'll have to contact Amy prior to we had one with marshonda Dixon, who left the education field. This is going to be a hard one, because our goal is to elevate the profession. I say so I really want to be careful going into this one. I don't want it to dismay anyone, and it's just hard when we're trying to attract people to the profession. Of us taking this leap to interview someone who, after a couple of years, left the teaching profession. And so it was hard to hear, but it was important to hear because there was a message to us, doctor, Amy, can speak to this. She asked questions at the end, and you can talk about that, Amy, and that's where we get a lot of our contribution. But she asked, What could we do better? What can we do better in our preparation program so that this doesn't happen. What can school districts do better so that they don't lose teachers, new teachers, and able to support new teachers? So we learned a lot in that conversation, and most importantly for me and talking from our Shonda Dixon and ginger Gonzalez is that professional education can take place outside the classroom, and there are two examples of how they continue to be professional educators, even though they're not in the peak K 12 in the K 12 classroom.

Debbie James: 19:33

One of the things that I've always found really interesting about this podcast is you know that you do have a sort of a sense of humor going into it, the battle between theory versus practice. And I think you have a lot of fun with talking with your guests and sort of obviously with each other. You know, there's this camaraderie, but as reflective practitioners, why is it? And this will riff right off the your last discussion, your last answer. Why is it important to talk about. Tough issues and opposing perspective on the issues facing both students, teachers and prospective teachers. I like

Amy Vujaklija: 20:07

what Joi said about taking a leap. It does force us to take a leap into some uncomfortable spaces. But think about our students, our K 12 students, our university students are often stepping into uncomfortable spaces. How are we making those spaces more comfortable for them? Well, we can't grapple with any answers if we don't ask the questions, if we don't even recognize what those uncomfortable spaces might be, or hear different perspectives. There are some perspectives that I have difficulty relating to, or maybe I didn't have that experience. Well, that's even more important for me to be a listener and to know what someone's story is. How did they get from the neighborhood they grew up in to being a director of curriculum or doing important practices with restorative justice. I don't know unless I ask questions, our students are not getting well served in their educational experiences, and

Joi Patterson: 21:20

there has been a lot of difficult conversations, a lot around equity. We talked to Dr Timothy Harrington, and his was kind of on the flip he talked about being white and black spaces when he worked at Chicago State University, and how that has impacted his life, and how much he learned from that experience, and now it impacts his ability to relate with people. We talked to Dr Matt Cooney about equity issues and Corey Williams, and they all shared their perspective on equity and diversity. These are tough conversation these days, we even talked about Black Lives Matter and those events that were going on at the time. And sometimes these are hard conversations to have, but it's necessary. And I think when we can put that footnote on it, and we can bring some solutions, I think that that's what makes it better. So

Debbie James: 22:21

I want to flip the table just a little bit. I want to know, and I think our audience wants to know, why did both of you come to teaching, and why do you stay?

Joi Patterson: 22:31

We're both. We have so much in common. We're both career changers. I didn't go start an education. My science career started as a research microscopist. That's why I went back to Governor state to earn a graduate degree in environmental biology, because I was a research microscopist, and I thought I was going to stay in that field. And then I took some time off and started teaching my children at home. And then teaching kind of found me. I loved it. I started writing curriculum, and I started substitute teaching, and I loved it. And my first job was with 40 non English speaking students and no curriculum. I was just kind of thrown in the classroom. That was my first job. It was scary. I had no idea really of what I was doing, and I had to make it work, and I found lots of success. And I really, really, really loved it. And it just came to a point where I wanted other candidates or other teachers to be more prepared. So I went into education administration and then higher ed. But my background started in a middle school classroom in Chicago, and I just love everything about the transformative nature of teaching and education.

Amy Vujaklija: 23:54

Yes, I was a career changer too. Started with admin work. I had an English degree. What do you do? Working on my masters and marketing and advertising, later, decided to teach. I taught a couple of college courses, and it felt right. So then I went back to get my certification to teach middle and high school, and that's where I was for 11 years. It was when I was teaching a different a literacy workshop class around years five or six that I knew I didn't know enough. And that's when I went back to school. Was working on my doctorate in literacy, education, professional development, curriculum and instruction. Just have always embraced what I don't know how to say it, except for a calling. It's there in my soul what I want to do. I like walking into the classroom, and I like having conversations about education my family while. Just me do my schoolwork. They realize this work has become a hobby. It I don't have it. They're hobbies, alright. Cass has become a hobby, or other pursuits have become hobbies. And it's pretty, pretty awesome to say that's pretty cool to say that parts of my work to be hobbies. One

Joi Patterson: 25:22

of the things that we learned from Paige Brown, marshonda, Dixon, Ginger Garcia, is that teaching is not what you do. Is who you are, and they are so correct. It is who we are. And as Amy said, hobby is our work.

Debbie James: 25:37

It's all about passion. And like you said, working long hours and you are what you do all day. So what do you what would you say to people who do in two instances, looking at potentially a career change? How do you feel the podcast might speak to them, but how do you talk about passion? What do you want them to know about that core soul piece?

Joi Patterson: 26:06

I want to go back to something you said earlier, Dr James, because it's a lot of work. We both talked about. We use this kind of as our hobby, but in fun, every experience and that I take, whether it's going to watch for buffaloes out west, or going to the Holocaust Museum, or recently going to the Van Gogh immersion museum experience. All of those things are stimuli that's going to impact your classroom, right? So all of those experiences, you look at every experience differently. You have these moments where you're doing things that are fun, right, but they impact, and they influence what goes on in the classroom, and you also think about equity issues during that time. But I think teaching is just such in any education profession, whether it's teaching, school psychology, school counseling administration, it's just so impactful, and you have to love what you do. You have to have a passion for it. You have to love the people that you're working with, because it is so impactful. And people who have a lousy education, it impacts them for the rest of their lives and society has we have to deal with that. We want people who are not only passionate, but are qualified and love to do the work so that they can have a huge impact. I want

Amy Vujaklija: 27:32

to speak to the passion piece for a second. I know it sounds a little dangerous and a little unhealthy, perhaps, to have work as a hobby. I do understand that. However, when a person, if they're seeking something to fill them not fulfill but to fill them, whether it's reading, writing, swimming, taking a walk, if you are in a zone, if a person is in a zone and doesn't realize time passes or feels the anxiety go away, the stress dissolve. That is a good hobby to have. I felt that when I put on the headphones and started doing some editing listening and actually felt a zone. Appear, we're working from home. A lot of stresses can arise. You would think that's nice calm atmosphere, but everybody's here all the time, so sometimes it can get stressful. So whatever that passion might be for anyone, knitting, swimming, whatever that might be if time passes and you feel that stress dissolve, that's the hobby, and that's what this has become for me, is it's different. I'm not used to this kind of work, blending all of the things I love, reading, researching, teaching, that's what I would encourage people to do, is make time for those passions,

Joi Patterson: 29:08

right? And there's quite a bit of research that goes into this. The many experts that we talk to, there's a lot to read about in terms of the work that they do, so that we could actually have a viable conversation. Well, the work

Debbie James: 29:22

shows, and every time I listen to episode, I noticed that not only is your passion, does that come out of the podcast, but also that of your guest. And I think that's an amazing skill that comes from that deep research, that comes from that deep respect for not only your guests, but the profession, I want to ask you this next question, because this, I think, speaks to the research, but also that coming together with the passion for your audience. As a teacher, I'm always looking for those resources that can help me today in the classroom, right? So Dr Joi and Dr Amy, you. You both spoken about the pillars of this podcast, and you spoke a little bit about them earlier in this conversation, this sort of embedded structure that gives your audience and your guests a series of meaningful signposts. Would you tell us to sort of expand on the pillars? Why those three

Joi Patterson: 30:16

pillars? I want to start with the first pillar of bringing attention to GSU. I just want to say I had a great experience at GSU, and we love the support. So I think first and foremost, that is what we want to do, is bring attention to GSU. We are hoping that people will come to GSU as a result of listening to something in the podcast. We try to bring attention to all of our wonderful programs and tie that in, whether it's an administration program, a teaching program or school counseling program, so we try to tie that in to every conversation. Of course, we talked about that very important one of elevating the profession. Even though we talk about challenges, we also talk about solutions, and then that third piece of making a contribution, and we talk to educators again. We use that term very broadly, from teachers to counselors to parents. We even talk to one of our technical director, Sarah Hirsch, and we talked to her about her experience with homeschooling. So it all adds value to what we're doing. We try to make sure that we bring those three things to light. And I love what Amy does at the end of each podcast. If you want to speak to that Amy

Amy Vujaklija: 31:36

at the end of every podcast, most every podcast, I'd like to ask, who inspires our guests or what they're reading or researching, a lot of great titles. A lot of great inspirations have come from that last question. Some of our guests have come from that last question, because if that person inspires our guests, we want to be inspired as well, so we'll invite that guest on our website and on our podcast. Notes, we include the book titles or the people who are referenced in the show, so that it's easier for our listeners to find the resources and the more we can focus on what inspires them, what they're researching and what they have to say, it seems that it's added the most value,

Debbie James: 32:29

speaking of inspiration. And this is the last question I have, sort of structured question. But now that you have published 20 episodes of your podcast, which is amazing, congratulations. And I know you've got another fairly significant list of podcasts that are ready to go out shortly. What's next for Dr Joi and Dr Amy? I

Amy Vujaklija: 32:51

think this summer I want to write a book, but in all honesty, I think there's so much value in looking at the narrative and seeing how we've grown. That's the English person coming out of me, the writing person coming out of me. I want I'm a very reflective practitioner, but a reflective person in general. And I've, I've seen a change. I've seen growth, and I want to write about it. I want to bounce those ideas off of Joi and see if she's feeling the same way. Is it an isolated event? Is it something that we're experiencing together? And I think there's a lot of value in sharing that with the academic field, in guiding other types of research that people might do, in self discovery, in ethnography, maybe a practitioner piece in how to do this, because there we learned a lot since last May about procedure, about process, about how to conduct an interview, or how to make it flow correctly. And we're still learning, for sure,

Joi Patterson: 34:06

and for me, I want to be a contributor to what Amy is writing. But I also want this to lead to more partnerships, more grants, more conversations. I'd like for us to continue to do this work and maybe even expand this work. Having a partner, I think, has really helped me. It really helps with accountability. And we have a schedule. And Amy is like me. We're very organized. As schedule oriented. We like charts and graphs. I could live my entire life according to charts. So we are alike in that way that we have the system of communicating, so that really helps with accountability, and I think that that's what's helping with the sustainability of this. And I think that we can only grow from here. Well,

Debbie James: 34:53

we're all looking forward to the next episode of Dr Joi and Dr Amy, our host of. Teaching and Learning,

Joi Patterson: 35:01

practice wins.

Amy Vujaklija: 35:05

Okay, so, but we lay a lot of theoretical foundations in our conversation, but in

Joi Patterson: 35:10

the end, it's practice. It's always practice. You know, we

Amy Vujaklija: 35:14

had a conversation with our most recent guest, and he talked about action. So theory, practice, action,

Joi Patterson: 35:24

action, and we'll thank Dr Andrew Hines for that.

Debbie James: 35:29

Thank you both. Before we sign off, is there anything? Any last thoughts you would like

Joi Patterson: 35:35

to leave? I do. I'd like to thank all the people in the background. I'm just so grateful for GSU for providing the support and also to will Davis at the school. He was our first supporter. He gave us the inspiration to and the support to do this.

Amy Vujaklija: 35:53

He also connected us with one of our guests. Yes, that will be an upcoming episode that's coming out soon. I want to do a shout out as well to Dr Shannon Dermer, who has been a big supporter, but she's supported us also a bit financially, to get some of our technology in place. It's just been amazing to work in a space and I don't know where else I could work, where there would be this much support and this much encouragement. So you want to do a podcast? Okay, sure, go for it. So we did,

Joi Patterson: 36:34

and we have to thank our families for respecting the sign on the door says, recording in progress. And Amy, your dogs have been so well behaved today.

Amy Vujaklija: 36:46

They did not bark today. They did during an interview a recording last week. Well, thank you. But I want to say

Debbie James: 36:54

say, of course, special thank you to Governor, State University, and I've been speaking with Dr Joi Patterson and Dr Amy vujakja, co host of Governor State University podcast series Happy International Women's Day. Thank

Joi Patterson: 37:09

you, Dr James, thank you until next time Amy,

Amy Vujaklija: 37:14

until next time Joi. Thank you for listening to teaching and leading with Dr Amy and Dr Joi. Visit our website at G, O, v, s, t.edu/teaching, and leading podcast to see the show notes from this episode,

Joi Patterson: 37:34

we appreciate Governor State University's work behind the scenes to make publishing possible, stay tuned for more episodes with Dr Amy and Dr Joi.