Transforming Learning through Experiential Education with Marshaunda Dixon
In this episode, we talk to Ms. Marshaunda Dixon, director of learning initiatives for Renaissance Christian Academy. We discuss the teacher shortage and lack of diversity in education, particularly among African American teachers. We highlight that while students of color are expected to make up 56% of the student population by 2024, only 82% of public school teachers are white. Dixon shares her journey from corporate America to teaching, emphasizing the importance of experiential learning and exposing students to diverse career paths. She discusses the challenges faced by teachers, including the need for support and mental health resources, and the significance of teaching as a calling rather than just a profession.
Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Teacher shortage, diversity in education, African American teachers, career changers, experiential learning, curriculum development, student exposure, mental health support, teacher burnout, educational leadership, community outreach, STEM projects, vocational paths, educational equity, professional development.
SPEAKERS
Marshaunda Dixon, Amy Vujaklija, Joi Patterson
Marshaunda Dixon:There's an African proverb that says, As long as the tale of the hunt written from the lion's perspective, the hunt will always be glorified. While I was teaching, I realized there's another part of this story that needs to be written. This
Amy Vujaklija:episode was originally released under the podcast titled teaching and learning theory versus practice. This rebooted episode has been migrated to teaching and leading with Dr Amy and Dr Joi I am Dr Amy veachlija, Director of educator preparation,
Joi Patterson:and I am Dr Joi Patterson, Chief Diversity Officer, our podcast addresses issues through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow as educators. So
Amy Vujaklija:join us on our journey to become better teachers and leaders. So let's get into it. Good morning. Dr, Joi,
Joi Patterson:good morning. Dr, Amy, how are you today? I'm doing
Amy Vujaklija:really well, but we do have a tough conversation ahead of us today.
Joi Patterson:We do we're going to have this conversation, and I kind of get teary eyed every time we have this conversation about teacher shortage and disparity of teaching, and so I just wanted to give some information about this before we meet our next guest. Diversity is inherently valuable, and we both know that we are stronger as a nation when people of varied backgrounds experience and perspective, work and learn together, diversity and inclusion, greed, innovation, and you and I know that dearly, right? Yes, we,
Amy Vujaklija:we did that. We have, we are different, different backgrounds, different experiences. And wow, look at the last several months of this podcast.
Joi Patterson:I know it, but things in our field hasn't changed very much. Research shows that diversity in schools, including racial diversity among teachers, can provide significant benefits to students, and we know that while students of color are expected to make up 56% of the student population by 2024 the Elementary and Secondary Education Workforce is still overwhelmingly white. In fact, most recent US Department of Education schools and staffing survey, they all show that 82% of public school teachers are identified as white. This figure is, I mean, it hasn't changed. When I was working on my dissertation 30 years ago, I don't want to admit that, but 30 years ago, I was reading the same type of data, and there are similar surveys that show the same thing. So we haven't moved the needle very much well.
Amy Vujaklija:And I want to point out too that it doesn't matter what school there isn't a different ratio. If it's an urban school, a private school, a public school in rural areas or suburban areas, and the population of the students shift across those different schools, but the ratio of the teachers does not, or it doesn't seem to be
Joi Patterson:it doesn't. And if we can improve diversity, it helps everyone. It helps students. Students of all colors need to be impacted by teachers of all colors. It even helps our achievement gap. There are so many benefits to diversifying our teacher pool. So on top of that problem, there's another problem. We talked about the lack of diversity, and we see that like 17% of African American students make up our student population, but we only have 7% of African American teachers, and it's similar for other persons of color. But more upsetting is that we're finding that African American teachers are leaving the profession faster than any other ethnic group, and that's what that is. What hurts my heart that they're actually leaving. So we're finding that many of them are leaving the profession after two and three years. And so we're going to have this tough conversation today about the teacher shortage and why African American teachers leave the profession. And. Hopefully you and I, we can learn some lessons, and those lessons we can implement into our program.
Amy Vujaklija:So let's introduce our guest today, because I know we have a lot of lessons to learn. So Miss Marshaunda Dixon has always been passionate about community outreach. She has coordinated several outreach initiatives for the Customer Care Center, most recently leading an effort to collect over 500 pounds of food for the Atlanta Food Bank through her exposure project learning initiatives, Dixon has been directly engaged in programs that expose career paths to Atlanta youth. She serves as the Director of learning initiatives for the Dwight Howard Foundation, leading its robotics team and coordinating career days Toastmasters and various stem projects. Now, during her years in education, she taught preschool, middle school, high school. She also served as a director of learning initiatives for Renaissance Christian Academy. Graduate of Alabama State University, where she played basketball for ASU women's basketball team. She is also a member of the American Association of blacks in energy and the women's energy network, as well as thrive, a community based education initiative for youth. So Although marshonda had left the classroom, she hasn't left teaching,
Joi Patterson:right? She left in a traditional sense. So I'm looking forward to meeting marshonda. Good morning. Hey. Good morning, marshonda. How are you? I'm great. How are you? We are great. So Amy and I, we were talking this morning, and we're talking about this topic. It's kind of near and dear to my heart, but it makes me teary eyed when we talk about number one, the teacher shortage and the lack of diversity, when added to that problem, we were talking about the fact that African American teachers are leaving the profession faster than any other ethnic group, and that just makes me a little teary eyed. And so we're really hoping in this conversation that you will kind of give us your journey, and we will learn from you. So we're really excited about learning and listening to you this morning. So and as a professional educator, I have to tell you this. I can't tell you how excited I was to hear when you were changing your career to become a teacher. I always knew that you were a natural teacher. You just have it in you. Your knowledge of history is just outstanding, and your passion and disposition to just make the best you and the best of everyone is just really contagious. So talk to us for a moment about how you came to make the decision to become a professional educator.
Marshaunda Dixon:Interesting. I knew when I was a kid I was supposed to be teaching when we played houses kids, I always was the teacher. That was my, that was my I had first dibs on teacher. But growing up, I just knew I wanted to be a teacher. I had a teacher when I was in eighth grade, and he solidified it for me, Mr. Harris. You know, everyone has that one teacher I'll never forget, Sean Harris. Mr. Harris taught me the importance of history. Really did it for me, and Mr. Harris was my history teacher. Most students, most of my classmates, hated history and thought it was so boring, but Mr. Harris had a way to me of making history come alive. So we just weren't reading stories and events like this stuff was real to me. You know, I was able to really draw pictures in my mind, and I was able to think about what I would have done like he forced me to critically think throughout moments of history, and he also made me see myself. He empowered me by teaching me black history. So he taught like a very balanced history, and he really went against the grain. And I noticed throughout my life, I like the teachers who kind of went against traditional tad bit, but what they also did was make me see myself. And he taught me the importance of allowing Empower, first of all, empowering students, because I remember how he made me feel, and then just making students really see themselves in the lesson to in order for them to think critically. Oh,
Amy Vujaklija:wow, it's so important for students to see themselves in the curriculum. And it sounds like you were so inspired and you had such energy and passion. So let's move forward a little bit goal for teaching. How did it compare to the actual teaching when you got into the classroom? Yeah. So
Marshaunda Dixon:once I in my. Mind. I was thinking it would be one way, of course, and I learned quickly it was a totally different way, and that I thought that my passion initially, I'll be honest with you, I thought that my passion for the subject matter alone would would move students right, and for some students, it did. But I quickly learned that students don't care about how much you know, and they and a lot of students, don't even care about how passionate you are about the subject. It's necessary for teaching, but what students really care about is how much you care about them. And so I quickly one of my mentors told me he's like, Marshall. He said, You have to learn how to lay down the pillow. And initially I didn't know what it meant, because he kind of just threw it out there at me. He was like, before you teach, you have to lay down a pillow. And he was like, you gotta learn students. And from that, I what I got from that is that you have to learn students, soft spot, and you have to let here for you. And so from that, I learned to love first and teach second. Yeah,
Joi Patterson:so that's what I love about you, is that disposition, and that's what I have always seen. I want to mention that you are a career changer, so when you went into the profession of teaching. You weren't just coming out of college. You were not that 22 year old, right? You were a career changer, and you had a successful career with opportunities for advancement, right? And so I'm sure it was a difficult decision for you. Can you talk about that decision that you were making of switching careers? Talk about the excitement, maybe, of switching careers, and what inhibitions did you have about becoming a teacher and making that transition? I want to mention because Amy and I are also career changers too, and it's not a decision that you take lightly, right? Wow,
Marshaunda Dixon:I think it was a, if I'm totally honest, it was a faith move for me, because I felt like I had just ended a a very long I'm just a total transparency here, I had just got a divorce, and so for a while, for a lot, I'll rewind for a second, for a long time, I did. I was good at corporate America. I was really good at my job. I was moving around the company, and so I was in a really safe or secure financial position. I knew I was supposed to be doing something different, like, I was like, I'm good at this, and this is making me money, but I've I'm feeling called to something different, and I've had this calling or this feeling most of my life, and I haven't fulfilled it. I got into a comfortable space financially, so I was able to find excuses to not fulfill it, right? And so I started making excuses in my mind, like, well, if I go and fulfill it, I will my income will reduce dramatically, and I now have a family, I'm responsible and stuff like that I have to take care of so. So after I got a divorce, it was like, Okay, this is my opportunity to do something that I have never done before, but always wanted to do. And I can actually answer this calling, I felt like I had, like a fresh start, if that makes sense, it was a new beginning for me and to not only there's a desire to kind of reinvent yourself, but it's also a desire to read, not just reinvent yourself, but do the things that you actually felt you always wanted to do. And so in my mind, it was kind of like, I'll throw everything, throw all caution to the wind, and just go after my heart's passion and just jump full fledge in right? Have you ever been there before? And so it's a scary place to be. It is. So I just It absolutely is. So I just jumped full force, and I prayed, and a lot of prayer and family support that that's important too. It's very important. So just jumped in it, and I was scared. I took a huge pay cut, and I probably took a took a toll on my social life as well, and I moved
Joi Patterson:lesson plans that took a toll on your social life? Was
Marshaunda Dixon:it very true, very true. So I jumped in, and I noticed I didn't get a lot of support with lesson plans, but I had family, friends who are teachers, who I reached out to, really reach out to my resources during this time, and it that journey taught me who I was, like it really confirmed for me or solidified because solidified for me who I am, although I did not teach long I wasn't I was there for one year, but that one year really taught me so much about myself and taught me about the things that I learned about myself during this time period were. It's incredible,
Amy Vujaklija:that passion just sounds incredible. Why did you leave
Marshaunda Dixon:because I really wanted to fulfill what I feel like I was supposed to do. I don't think that. I never felt like teaching was just a profession. I always felt like teaching is a calling, and that's what makes you get up and keep trying again. But after a lesson goes bad, or after your students act up, or after a bad day, I just always just something that always makes you want to share information, even despite the politics of it, despite how hard it can be, like I've always just felt like it was always just been a feeling for me. I've always been passionate about sharing information and particularly history, and so it's just always been something that I wanted to fulfill. And after my divorce, I felt like it was my the perfect opportunity to jump into, jump into teaching. It's like, okay, I checked this corporate box before I've been able to be successful in this particular area. So if I follow spells, I know I can always come back to this if I need to, but my but I have to fulfill this calling. It's like a yearning, desire, right? That I had, and that's what made me lean,
Amy Vujaklija:that's a heartbreaking moment of realizing that being in the classroom is not exactly the right pathway, but still having that energy for teaching in some way, shape or form. Tell us what you did with that energy.
Marshaunda Dixon:That's a great question. While I was in the classroom, I learned that I used to do like career days and things like that. For the school I was at, while doing a career day, I invited a veterinarian, a veterinarian, to come and speak to the students. And the veterinarian was talking to the students about different positions in that particular area, and one of my students during their conversation, one of the students never heard of a eye doctor before, like an optician before. And I was shocked, because I was teaching high school, and the vet and the student, they're, they're talking about different professions in the medical field. And the vet had just, so happens to say, like optician or something in the optical area. And the student had no clue, and he was 16. No clue what this was and what that was. The beginning, it made me realize how under exposed our students are, how underexposed students and underserved communities are, and I was, and then I started to pay attention to how underexposed our students were, as far as different career fields were concerned. And so that from there, I became very interested in seeing how I could expose students to different things, like I just developed, like a thirst for I kind of became obsessive about exposing my students to different things. So it kind of started off with career fields, and then I realized it's educational areas as well as academic areas where our students are not exposed. So I started the exposure project. And initially it was to expose them to different careers, and then it went from there to like stem and engineering things in the engineering field. And so what I did was started the exposure project with that particular energy. So
Joi Patterson:I really want to go back to something that you said, because it really struck a nerve with me when you said, teaching is not just a profession, it's really your passion. Teaching is not what you do, it's who you are, right? And so you're very much an educator. You're very much a teacher. And being a effective teacher takes many shapes and forms, and it doesn't always find itself in the classroom. And so I'm glad that you found that space where you can be as effective as you want to be, and the exposure project sounds like you're using experiential learning techniques to teach and mold students. Sure. So is that experiential learning and exposing them? Is this your philosophy of how you think teaching and learning should be
Marshaunda Dixon:absolutely, absolutely we have to get back to we have to incorporate experiential and project based learning. I think classrooms, technically, to me, it's any anywhere exposure and discovery are taking place. It's a classroom. It could be in a living room. It could be outside for us to reconsider our ideas of traditional classrooms. I guess you could say
Joi Patterson:experiential learning is probably my best method of teaching. However, those tests and those standards and things like that sometimes get in the way, and you know what I'm talking about. And. Sometimes those goals that you have you must meet as a teacher on those standardized assessments and in your lesson plans do not always lend itself to experiential learning. What you're describing is just a natural way that we should be learning. Absolutely
Marshaunda Dixon:we need experiential learning and student centered learning. Well,
Amy Vujaklija:you talked about the light bulb moment, about seeing students who had not been exposed to different experiences, to different career fields and and then seeing gaps in the curriculum as well. Tell us about your experience writing curriculum.
Marshaunda Dixon:There is, one of the things I learned while teaching history, is that the story is written a certain way. I felt like, well, I'm certain the story is written from a particular position, right? I think there's a there's a African proverb that says, As long as the tale of the hunt written from the lion's perspective, the hunt will always be glorified. While I was teaching, I realized there's another part of this story that needs to be written. I didn't feel like it was balanced, if I can be completely honest, here we learned about so many different things during Black History Month, and I'm teaching history for entire the entire month of February without teaching any black history, because it wasn't a part of the curriculum for that particular time period. It just didn't meet up. And I think that's a common that's a common theme right throughout our system. So I had to figure out ways to incorporate pieces of black history during that particular month, and it was very difficult because it wasn't a part of the you know, wasn't it wasn't what I was supposed to be teaching during that time. During that time, I realized that we need to write our stories from our perspectives as well. Our stories need to be told. So I realized that I'm like, okay, so how can I infuse our stories? We have to write our own curriculum. We have to write our own stories, to share our own stories. Have to write our own curriculum. That was a piece to it. The other piece was I really wanted to incorporate experiential learning. We need experiential learning in our history stories. That was kind of my motivation for that.
Joi Patterson:You know John Dewey would just love you. He would wrap his arms around you right now, such
Marshaunda Dixon:a fan of John Dewey's philosophy.
Joi Patterson:We are talking to Miss Marshaunda Dixon, she is an entrepreneur. She is an educator. She is passionate about teaching and learning, and we're talking about, really, the lack of diversity in education. And more importantly, we're learning lessons about how teaching takes many, many forms, and it doesn't always take place in the formal classroom. So I'm happy that marshonda is here giving us a really nice lesson today, because we're going to take these lessons back to us into our programs. We offer a variety of programs, and just the other evening, we were having some experiential learning opportunities where we bring in guest speakers and we talk about issues. Some of those things are challenging issues, but we do this to expose our teacher candidates to as much real life as possible, so in turn, that they will bring this to their classrooms. So thank you for these lessons. We're going to keep going. Marshonda, this is this is good stuff. So talk about the exposure project a little bit more. And what do you wish that you could have taken and put into the traditional classroom. What did what did you wish they would have allowed you to do,
Marshaunda Dixon:take my students on more field trips, my the schools, the school that I taught at, did not have a lot of money. So that that was, money was an issue, resources were was an issue, so I would write grants and things like that to come up with the money. And also just ask museums if we could, I could bring my students at a discounted rate, and a lot of times they did, but just take my students on field trips. I think that that's important, that's critical. Our students have to get outside of the school to learn. Also, one of the things I wish they would have allowed me to do is expose our students to more vocational paths. And that's something that's Well, I think right now, there is a shortage. There's such there's a shortage also in, I'm kind of switching gears here a tad bit, but there's a shortage in. Different vocation career fields, right? And so our students need to be just expose our students to different things. And I would bring different people in the classroom, different people in the classroom from different career areas to talk to my students, because I realized there is such a shortage in particular career field. And I'm passionate about preparing our students for their futures economically, right? And so right now there's a big shortage in fields like H back and mechanics. I think there's a 75,000 man shortage right now on welding. So I literally would have these different people come to my classroom and talk to my students. I ended up, actually ended up somehow getting talking to different people. I ended up getting NASA, a representative from the NASA HUNCH program, to come to my classroom as well, to talk to them about how to prepare food for for, excuse me, prepare food for different people who are going to space, astronauts and so our student, I was like, my students just have to be exposed to different things, and I need to bring these people into the classroom to get them thinking and to discover and to just to expose them to these different things. So one of the things that those are the types of things that some of the types of things that I was trying to do to expose our students, those are some of the things that I wish that I would have been allowed to do a tad bit more freely, if I could have gotten assistance with kind of organizing those types of things that would have been great. Really quick story, and I'll move on from here. One weekend, I took a few of my students to they were interested in music, and so I took them to the Stax museum. I was working teaching in Memphis, and these students were born and raised in Memphis, 16 years old, and they never visited the Stax Museum, and their minds were blown away because they didn't know all of this music came from. It came from Memphis that they heard all of their lives, their lives like after that, after taking them to the Stax Museum, their response was amazing. You
Amy Vujaklija:talk about being real, showing students what's out there, showing them the possibilities, who they can be, the careers that they can choose. What can high school teachers and universities too do to be real about the teaching profession?
Marshaunda Dixon:Wow, that's a great question. I guess one of the things that high school leadership can do is, first of all, not forget your time in the classroom. Remember your time in the classroom, remember the weight of a teacher, and I think it's under also, and then understand that great teachers don't teach the brain like they teach the spirit. And learning is kind of like a byproduct of that. The x's and o's of teaching is it's teachable. Those things are teachable, but the human aspect of teaching is born like in certain people. And so I think that when leadership is looking for teachers, they have to definitely remember that, keep that in mind and meet teachers where they are. I think it's important. What I learned is to meet students where they are by starting off with love and then teach. In second, I think administration and leaders in education have to take that same what's a good idea for them, to take that same philosophy and meet the teachers where they are starting with love understanding how difficult it is to even step into the position of teaching. Let's say I want
Joi Patterson:to teach. So I want to finish up on the same line of thinking. You went through a preparation program, basically for career changers, and I know that you like to write curriculum. What things would you write into that curriculum, and how they prepare teachers, and also for administrators, of hiring new teachers. What advice would you give to administrators bringing on new teachers?
Marshaunda Dixon:Provide support for them? I think it's important that school leadership provide support in for teachers in so many different ways. While I was teaching, I had a student, I asked a few students actually who were homeless. So when one student in particular had one that lived in a shelter and another one who lived in a car, and what I learned is that the weight of knowing that my student, this particular student, she didn't do her homework, she didn't do her homework, like three days went by, she would do her homework every day, and three days went by and she didn't do her homework. And so I poured her to the side and just had a real conversation with her, because she was so she was always adamant about doing her homework, and these three days went by, she didn't do it, and she was saying, My mom has picked up another job, and so I have to watch my brother, and she's explained. Into me what's going on in the car. And she kept saying, the car, the car. At first, I did not know until after this conversation, and so I walked away. This conversation happened in the morning, and it kind of, I won't say it messed up my day, but it weighed on me. Our conversation did, and I talked to my leadership, briefly about it, my principal briefly about it, but not too much, because we didn't have time. But it was heavy on me and I, at that moment, I realized this might sound crazy, but I needed support. I needed some mental I was like, teachers should get free therapy like this. We should really get for you, because, if I had to really, you're required to always be on, even though you will constantly have things thrown at you that throw you way off. You have to be on and you have to be perfect. And I think that's toxic, toxic. It's kind of like you have to create a space for toxic, positive, positivity, if you will. That even makes sense, because that day I learned that this is this is heavy, and I have to bounce back quickly from this, and I can't carry the weight of my students because it affects the next student that I meet with. And so I think it's important for leaders to remember, our students are dealing with things that dealing with different things, but the teachers are carrying it. And so I think it should be a space for mental health for teachers as well as students. Students have a social worker, but that day, I learned teachers need a social worker too,
Joi Patterson:right? And what you're really explaining this teacher burnout, and Amy and I, we were having this conversation at like you, we were just kind of thrown in the classroom. We were both career changers, like you, thrown in the classroom. I can remember I had 49 English speaking students, and I didn't have that administrative support that you're talking about and those additional supports. And so all this was it just weighs on you when you don't have that support and you don't know what to do with it. And I was explaining to Amy, I said, I don't even know if I wanted someone to come in my classroom, because I didn't really know what I was doing. I was winging it for a long time, and so what you're saying is, right, and that's why we have teacher burnout. But like you, we're all still educators. We're all still professional educators. We're no longer in the P 12 classroom, we're in higher ed, and we're having an impact in different ways, and we all can have impacts in different ways. It doesn't have to be in a formal P 12 classroom. So I'm just excited that you're still doing what you do, that you're still passionate about teaching and learning and making a difference in our society. You're doing an excellent job. You are a role model. We're just happy to see that you're in the fight to make things better,
Amy Vujaklija:then you make some great suggestions for what our candidates should do whenever they are job seeking is seeking out schools who have supports in place. Ask about mentorship programs, because even though there might be mentorship in place, sometimes we don't even know what we need. We don't even know how to answer the question, that's a great What do you need? So having a systematic type of mentorship is important, because they already know what those first year teachers will need and what they will ask. Because as a first year teacher, I didn't know what to ask. Yes,
Marshaunda Dixon:you don't know what you need. I didn't realize I needed all the support that I needed is definitely important and to take a break. One day, one of my co workers told me, she said, Put everything down and go enjoy yourself on a Friday. It was a Friday, and she was like, go somewhere and enjoy yourself. I like. She like, pulled me to the side, looked me in my eyes, and said, take a break. And at that moment, I realized, wow, I need a break, because as teachers, were givers by profession, and then most of most teachers are givers by heart and by nature. And I was a workaholic, and I just threw myself completely into the into this and without very little breaks. And so my my emotional tank was on zero.
Joi Patterson:And when you're working in an urban school, sometimes it feels like you're in an emergency room and you're a doctor or nurse in an emergency room. And as joyous as the profession is, it can be very taxing. Absolutely,
Marshaunda Dixon:I do have something. One thing I meant to add when you ask. About leadership, administrators, hiring teachers. A quick note I would advise is look past the pedagogy of it and look at the person. Look at the actual person. That's one thing I would add. It has been
Amy Vujaklija:wonderful talking to you. You are talking about the passion for teaching, but even more so, the passion for the person, and I just am so glad you were able to join us today. You've given us so much to think about. But I want to ask one more question, Who inspires you That's
Marshaunda Dixon:That's interesting, because I'm constantly inspired my mother, who has retired and reinvented herself, kind of my hero when I kind of she is. She has taught me the importance of continuing to try and and to continue and to thrive, not just live, but to thrive after hardships. But I'm also inspired by kids, by students, you know, my scholars, they is they constantly inspired me by their stories, and then honestly, and then my family, different family members inspire me. I'm inspired by you all. I'm inspired by Doctor Joi who, who I've watched continue to thrive, and I've watched beat she's been a great example and a model for me in education and just her passion and continuing to grow even after she's reached certain heights. I watched her continue to even climb higher. I'm like, okay, so you got this high, how high are you going to get? Like, you know? And so she is consistently. She's very consistent in her growth. And for me, watching her, just even from afar, has been inspiring. It reminds me I need to grow even when I reach a certain place. I need to continue to see if I can move forward, continue to create pathways to move forward. She teaches me that just by watching her life. And so I'm inspired. He inspires
Amy Vujaklija:me too. Oh,
Joi Patterson:thank you. I'm inspired now, and it's been just a wonderful pleasure talking to you all. I am looking forward to nothing but the things coming from you. Marshonda, you are such an inspiration. Wow.
Marshaunda Dixon:Thank you, and thank you for the opportunity to do this. Thank you Dr Amy, thank you, Joi.
Amy Vujaklija:Thank you for listening to teaching and leading with Dr Amy and Dr Joi. Visit our website at G, O, v, s, t.edu/teaching, and leading podcast to see the show notes from this episode,
Joi Patterson:we appreciate Governor State University's work behind the scenes to make publishing possible. Stay tuned for more episodes with Dr Amy and Dr Joi.
