Reimagining Learning in the Digital Age with Laurie Hendrickson

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Technology in education, media literacy, digital storytelling, remote learning, student engagement, social emotional learning, online learning communities, formative assessments, visual communication, maker spaces, professional development, instructional strategies, student participation, educational resources.

SPEAKERS

Joi Patterson, Amy Vujaklija, Laurie Hendrickson

Laurie Hendrickson: 00:03

I just think it's so important for students to understand that their presence is important, that their participation is important, that we want to hear their voice.

Amy Vujaklija: 00:14

This episode was originally released under the podcast titled teaching and learning theory versus practice. This rebooted episode has been migrated to teaching and leading with Dr Amy and Dr Joi I am Dr Amy Vujaklija, Director of educator preparation, and I

Joi Patterson: 00:35

am Dr Joi Patterson, Chief Diversity Officer. Our podcast addresses issues through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow as educators.

Amy Vujaklija: 00:49

So join us on our journey to become better teachers and leaders. So let's get into it. Good morning. How are you today? Joi, good morning. Amy,

Joi Patterson: 01:03

I'm excited about today. I mean, we're going to talk about technology, right, and we're all have technology on our brain right now. So I'm excited about this conversation today. Well,

Amy Vujaklija: 01:15

and Laurie Hendrickson, I met first through the Illinois writing project. She's on the leadership team with me, and I've just worked on some projects with her, and have been blown away with her expertise with technology, teaching with technology. Most recently, she presented to our professional development group about media literacy and the sequence of lessons that she was providing and sharing with us to use in our own classrooms, or just so intricately developed, but They built on one another and allowed choice, allowed for student exploration and inquiry, and so just really want her to share some of these resources with us. And who informs her practice?

Joi Patterson: 02:14

Yeah, I don't know Amy, like you do, but I did read her bio and had a chance to chat with her. You know, she's a middle school teacher, like we are, so she gets a plus there. And I'm just, personally, I'm looking forward to learning a lot about integrating technology, some of the opportunities and the challenges. I'm looking forward to learning so much from her. And I'm sure listeners are looking forward to learning so much. So I'm looking forward to this conversation, Laurie.

Amy Vujaklija: 02:44

Yes, indeed. Let's bring her

Joi Patterson: 02:46

on. Okay.

Amy Vujaklija: 02:49

So welcome, Laurie. We're

: 02:50

so happy to have you with us today. Hi. Thank you for inviting me.

Joi Patterson: 02:56

Good morning, Laurie. You're a middle school teacher. So we have three former middle school teachers here. I guess that makes us all a little special.

Laurie Hendrickson: 03:08

Yes, it is a unique age. It has some challenges and lots of rewards.

Amy Vujaklija: 03:13

Well, after having worked in middle school, which I absolutely love, I'm in teacher education now and get to work with future middle school and high school teachers, but after retirement, what prompted you to continue working in education as a supervisor and adjunct instructor Illinois, Ryan project leadership team member,

Laurie Hendrickson: 03:39

well, I was a graphic designer. I for most of my career, and I changed careers midlife and became a teacher, because I was running a freelance business out of my home, and I was just bored and kind of wanting a new adventure, and so I really took stock of what I was interested in, and those things were technology, visual and written communications, reading, traveling, learning, and that led me to teaching. So I got my MIT at DePaul and became a teacher in River Forest at the middle school. That was my first job right out of school, and I was there for my whole teaching career. I specialized, really in integrating technology into the curriculum. I spent a lot of effort doing that, but I also did a lot of other really, really fun things. While I was a teacher, I gained an endorsement and gifted education. I earned another Master's degree in reading. I built a maker space in my classroom. I taught an after school STEM class. I supervised a robotic team. I served as an instructional specialist. I taught writing to students in India, and I provided professional development workshops to teachers in Lithuania. And honestly, my life as a teacher has been so much fun. And I love teaching, and I love education, but being a classroom teacher, as you know, is all consuming, so I wanted to slow down, but I definitely didn't want to stop teaching and learning.

Joi Patterson: 05:14

All I can say is, wow, that's a lot. Lori, you know, I got my MIT at DePaul University. We'll have to talk offline about when you may have been there, because I started my career as a research microscopist, and you know, like me, I discovered teaching a little later, and I discovered my love of teaching before I actually went into it professionally. So we have some talk about later. You know, I do want to talk about technology. And there are so many things about technology that you have experience with. So I'm going to talk about the little nuggets that I know about. And one of the things is that I quit my class on many occasions. And you know, I do that because Honda is very beneficial to get the knowledge level and the comprehension level information out. So those things would normally take place in a direct instruction or lecture form, so that I can do more of the application analysis in my classroom. And I found that that's worked really, really well for me, and so there's been some advantages and disadvantages. Can you talk more specifically about your focus of technology when you're using it for instruction? Yeah,

Laurie Hendrickson: 06:34

I, you know, I never use technology for technology's sake. I always use it within the curriculum with a specific person purpose, and I use it. I'm a big believer in creating something to learn, and technology gives you a great platform for doing that. And my students created many, many things that had to do with with the curriculum that they were studying, but with the use of technology. So when I first started teaching in River Forest, it was we were the district was beginning to realize that students were spending a lot of time on computers at home, and, you know, they were gaining a lot of skills that we didn't recognize and that we didn't reward, really, and so it kind of made a break between home and school. So so my district, to their credit, decided that we would bring technology into the schools and have the students using technology at school as well as at home. So at one point, they offered us all of this technology equipment if we wanted it, and it included a computer and an iPod and a digital camera and in a still camera. And so, of course, I jumped on that and just jumped right into it. You know, I, I didn't really fear it. And the kids helped me along. So the very first project I did was I just had them write a poem about themselves, draw a picture of themselves on kid pics, and then I put it on a loop and showed it at Open House. And the parents loved it. The kids loved doing it. And then I was hooked. So then I bought a book called digital storytelling in the classroom by Jason oler, and that became my Bible. I really, oh, I read that book over and over. I bought it for a lot of other teachers, and it gave me a lot of confidence to really jump in. And one of the main things he talked about was making green screen movies. And this was foreign to me. I never thought I could make a green screen movie, but it wasn't that hard, and he gave me the confidence to try it. So over the years, my students made many, many, many green screen movies. One that comes to mind was a story that some girls created. They were we were studying a biography unit, and they created this project where it was all in the classroom. They had a green screen and a camera, movie camera, and so they were doing a movie about Van Gogh. And so what they did was they would fall into the picture and of a Van Gogh picture. So it was like they fell into the picture, and then they would look around and describe the picture, you know, and and it was so fun, and they did it all on their own time, and they came in extra and worked on it, and they just had the best time. They were engaged, and it related to the curriculum. So, I mean, I could, I could illustrate dozens of projects that my kids did that you would never expect 1112, year old kids to do.

Joi Patterson: 09:44

And I'm going to let Amy jump in here, but I do have a question following up. So of course, you may have had some technology standards, but I imagine you may have been working on either social science or some literature standards that. You're incorporating that type of technology, help them in those other standards motivated them and help them in the other standards?

Laurie Hendrickson: 10:08

Oh, well, yes, absolutely. And you know, they would, these were long projects. They would, they would do tons of reading, tons of writing, before I would ever let them start making a project with technology? So they met lots and lots of standards. They worked on lots and lots of skills during this, this whole procedure. So absolutely, they learned just a lot before they ever touch the technology. You know you were talking

Amy Vujaklija: 10:41

about storytelling. You mentioned the book digital storytelling, and we've talked before about how teaching is about telling stories, or students learn better through storytelling. How does this storytelling apply to teaching with technology or even across other content areas.

Laurie Hendrickson: 11:07

One of the big things that my students did was they made digital stories. And those could be a lot of different things. They could be research based, they could be personal, they could be a combination of the two, which they very often were, but it really is all about the story. Story is really at the center of human activity. That's what we remember. I you could probably imagine a ton of PowerPoint slideshows that you've seen that were facts, facts, facts, facts, facts. And, you know, you go away and you don't really think about it again, but stories really help in remembering, and they really help in remembering when they have some kind of an emotional component and some kind of transformation. So what did they learn? How did they change? This actually reminds me of a story. When I first started doing these digital stories, I had a student. She was a sixth grader, and she was doing a digital story about her family going to Disneyland. Now this could have been a story that that sounded like, oh, I went to Disneyland. We had so much fun. We went on all kinds of rides. We, you know, ate all kinds of fun food. It was a great time. And then we came home, but she didn't, because I had taught her how to write a small story, small seed story about a day and not to talk about the whole day. And she wrote a story about how she got lost at Disneyland, and it was a day where she had been with her brothers and her parents, and her brothers were giving her a hard time, and she was crabby, and, you know, wish she wasn't there with her brothers and and so then she got lost. And she was a bright little girl, and she knew that if she panicked, she might attract some people that didn't have her best interest in heart. So she calmed herself down. And once she calmed herself down, she remembered that there was a lost child pavilion, and she remembered where it was, so she walked over there, and, you know, they were very supportive, and they gave her something to drink and sat her down and said, your parents will probably come here. And she waited and waited, and finally they came in, and they all rushed in. They were all crying because they were so relieved to find her. And she had this transformation. She realized that her family really loved her and how special they were to her and how wonderful it was to have them. And, you know, she talked about these universal themes of getting lost and value in your family and things like that. And it was just a charming, charming video. And it also then everyone in the class started remembering their lost child stories, you know, because we've all been there. We've all done that. It connected to us in a very personal way. That's what I try to do with these digital stories, is have have that emotional component and have some kind of life changing change.

Joi Patterson: 14:01

You know, Laurie, we're going to have to have you back again, also just on a segment of digital stories, very intriguing to me, and kind of a show and tell. I really want to see that. And you mentioned earlier that students are learning to use a lot of technology on their own. They're using technology at home. Some you know, they're born with a tablet in their hand now, and your school recognized how much students already knew about technology. So do you use any social media as part of your instructional tool? And if so, how do you

Laurie Hendrickson: 14:40

you know, that's a really good question. And with my middle schoolers, I, at one point, I was an instructional specialist, and I did create some materials for a media literacy unit for them. And so they tried with their students. One of the projects was they could take, like, a Twitter campaign. And and get people to comment on what they were posting and and it didn't really work out all that well. The students were using it more for personal use, and they weren't as interested in using it for school work. So then I sort of lost interest in doing that, and I couldn't really figure out a way to teach social media in a real, meaningful way. Now, having so that was when I was a teacher. Now, having left teaching and had time to really think about media literacy and think about social media, I have learned a lot about, you know, teaching students how to use social media responsibly. And there's a lot of information out there on that, and I've been curating it and creating units and lessons. And so I'm not an expert at it, but I have gotten into it

Amy Vujaklija: 15:56

well, and that brings up something that I'd like to know, if you were teaching right now with remote teaching and learning, I don't see it going away. There might not be anything like a snow day anymore.

Laurie Hendrickson: 16:11

It is. It's not going away, and especially at the university level. I mean, online learning gives students such flexibility with their, you know, with their time and their responsibilities. So I don't think it's going away. And yes, I would absolutely embrace it if I was still teaching. And not that I don't miss teaching face to face. I love teaching face, teaching face to face. There's an energy you get when you're with students and other teachers that I miss horribly, and it there are a lot of challenges to it, and the challenges are keeping kids motivated and engaged, and it takes a lot of work to do that. So, you know, I worry about some classroom teachers who just don't have the time to really change the way they're teaching, because you can't just take a lesson that you gave face to face and then just transfer it to online. There's a lot of different components that you have to think about. As far as engagement, you've got to, you know, teach less, speak less, have more hands on projects. Have ways to make sure that students are are still interested and still engaged and still listening by using a lot of formative assessments, but I think it has, I think it really has the ability to create more independent learners. I was finding in middle school that students were becoming more and more connected to the teachers, as far as getting information from them, instead of finding the information by themselves. And you know, in this day and age, they really need to be independent learners, because technology changes constantly, and so they've got to learn and unlearn programs and change the way they teach and do different things. And so I think we have a big opportunity to teach students to do that, to read directions critically, to follow directions, to problem solve, to figure out how to portray something. So I think it has a lot of benefits, and, you know, some drawbacks. I mean teaching, you know, as we all know, learning is a social endeavor, and you need to be talking to your peers, and there are breakout rooms. But then again, that's a learning curve too. How do you keep Breakout Rooms interesting? How do you, you know? How do you time it? So kids get their work done in the breakout room, and then they can go back to the full class and report out on what they've done. How do you make their work visible to everybody, so that you know, with shared documents, and we can see what's going on in each breakout room. I know teachers go back and forth with different rooms, but I think there's more we can do to make their learning visible too. So those are, you know, these are all challenges that we're all facing now.

Joi Patterson: 19:06

So I'm glad you brought up some of the challenges. You know, we are really talking about some of the benefits of using technology and how to use it and integrate it into your classroom. But there are some drawbacks you mentioned and some challenges I'm speaking one on one to a send Amy and I were having this conversation. She's a freshman in college. She's actually embracing this remote learning. You know, the other freshmen, not so much because, of course, they were looking forward to coming to college and all the social activities. But she was actually embracing being remote because she was an introvert, you know, she was bullied in the past, and she was anxious about going to college, so this has been a nice segue for her, you know, to start college. And so I just want to know about, if we could talk about for a second the social, emotional aspects that goes into teaching. And face to face versus online or remote, virtual?

Laurie Hendrickson: 20:05

Yeah, that's probably the most important aspect of online teaching. And really at the beginning of any class, teachers really need to be concentrating on those social, emotional learning standards, because it's very important for students to feel comfortable in in remote learning, it's easy for them to hide, and, you know, a lot of them won't show their faces on the camera, and they won't participate. They won't be an active participant because they're shy. They don't want to so by by getting them come to feel comfortable and safe in the online community and to feel like they're an active participant and that their voice matters, I think that that we have to spend a lot of time doing, you know, warm up activities and team building activities and maybe just some fun games and really teach, teach it in a way that's non threatening to these shy, introverted students, so that they do participate. Because, as we all know, you know, a class is way more interesting with everybody is participating. So, you know, I think that that really takes some time to do. The other thing we really need to do, and we can do this easier in the classroom when we observe students and see what their ability level is, see what their strengths are. We can't do online as easily. So I think we need to be sending out surveys and having them write in journals and so we get to know them. We get to know their reading ability, their writing ability, their interests, their learning styles. And I think we have to make more of an effort to do that. And you know something like Google Forms makes that really easy to do.

Amy Vujaklija: 21:55

You were talking about building community, and you mentioned some like games and things, what have you found the most effective, or what have in your research or in face to face classrooms that might translate or transfer to online spaces in building community?

Laurie Hendrickson: 22:17

Well, one, one thing we did, and I did this with my university students, was we did a what if, so what if online learning resulted in and then they would have to fill in the blanks. And that, we did it in in an Illinois writing project meeting, and it was really fun. And when I did it with my students, it was really fun too, and so, and at that time, I could teach a program like Padlet, where there's a wall where, where they could go in there and write down things, you know, and that was really fun. And and then I used Padlet and had them write down icebreaker activities. Write down a time when you had a really good time with an icebreaker activity, write down a time when you thought it was really stupid and embarrassing, you know? And so they really got into that, and that was really fun. Another thing I've always done with my students in middle school, and I honestly think this will work for university students as well, but we would go around the room, and I would take something like a yardstick, and I would say, this is not a yardstick, this is a bow and arrow. And then the other person would say, this is not a yardstick, this is a violin. And we would go around the room and and you could pass if you wanted to. And so we'd go around the room, and some people would pass, and some people would have these really cute ideas, really imaginative, creative ideas. And then once we went around, once they would all want to go around again. And then everyone would participate. So so something like that is fun. Another thing we did is we all gave ourselves a symbol of some sort, you know. And so then we attach that symbol to their name. And that was we did that at the beginning of the year. We were just learning everybody's names and and so then people sometimes would see them in the home, they would do their symbol, you know, to say hi or something, you know. So just ways to get them to connect with each other. There are a million online warm up activities or icebreaker activities to use.

Joi Patterson: 24:28

Laurie, what is your philosophy about cameras off, cameras on? How do you feel about that? You know, I can do a better job if your cameras are on, so that I feel like I'm I need it too as a teacher, you know, so as much as you're trying to motivate your students, I think as teachers, we have to make things interesting for ourselves, so that we are teaching with fidelity and, you know, and that we're able to motivate them. So I need to have their cameras on. What

Laurie Hendrickson: 24:58

how do you feel about. Of it. Well, I feel like cameras should always be on, you know, it's it's very hard to connect to somebody when you just see a printed name and you don't see their face. You need to see their face and their expressions. And so I'm big on that. Now I have a student teacher who worries about that, because she said some of her students don't have an environment that they want to show online or something like that, and she doesn't want to push them to do that. And I guess I wouldn't want to, you know, force them to. But I think if, I think, if we start having fun with games, and it seems non threatening, and the kids in the class seem nice. I think we'll get them to turn them on. We have to see their face. And students should hear their names every day. They you know, I did an observation yesterday, and the student teacher, as students came into the class, online classroom, she welcomed them by names, and so they heard their name. I just think it's so important for students to understand that their presence is important, that their participation is important, that we want to hear their voice and we want to hear what they have to say. I've also heard that some students don't want to be put on the spot by answering questions that maybe they don't know, or they don't have time, you know, because some people process things slower than others, and so, you know, they don't want to answer a question right out of the chute. So I think it helps to have them write their give them time to write their answer, or give the, you know, give them some non threatening questions for a while, so they get used to answering, you know, an opinion. Everybody can have an opinion. There's not one right answer and one wrong answer. I think if we make the subject relevant to their lives, they're going to have some opinions. I think students right now are going to have some opinions things that are impacting them. They're also things that are probably impacting them a little negatively, so maybe they need to talk about those things.

Joi Patterson: 27:03

So you brought up something that's interesting. My favorite mode of instruction is using a Socratic method, you know, an inquiry method. And I do a lot of questionings, which I found it a little hard to do remotely, but you've just given me some interesting ideas of how to do that, since we were talking about cameras on can you share the little fun? What did your work space look like? Oh,

Laurie Hendrickson: 27:32

well, that's interesting, because when I was a teacher, I got very into maker spaces, and maker spacer spaces are just areas in in the school where you the kids, you would furnish it with a lot of resource, electronics and art supplies and knitting supplies and sewing machine supplies and all kinds of things. And students could go in there and just create. And it could be create creating something for a class, or it could be just creating something for fun. So I created a Makerspace in my home, and my husband's an artist and and I like to do art projects, and so I've combined it as a place to work, and my husband works from home to sometimes. So it's a place to work. It's a place to create. We've got all kinds of supplies around. We've got paints and we have these found we got into found objects, making sculptures with found objects. And we've got all kinds of found objects. And, you know, we have everything we need, from to for work and everything we need. So it's kind of all jammed into one space, but you feel creative when you walk in here. I think it's important for students to have a space too. And not everyone is lucky enough to have, you know, an empty room that they can do this with. We're empty nesters, so we have this room and and that's great, but I think it's important to have a little find a little nook of your own, even if it's in a closet or, you know, just a corner of a room, just a place for you to keep your supplies, so they're always at hand. You know, I started recently knitting and and I had all my knitting stuff in this bag that my mother in law gave me, and my husband said, You know what you need? You need a basket so that it's easy for you to access your knitting, and you'll be more likely to do it. And it's the same thing with school, you know, if you don't have, if you have to get up and go look for a pencil or or, you know, a charger or something, you're just not going to get as engaged and you won't get into that flow of learning. So I think it's really important to figure out a way to have your own little space.

Amy Vujaklija: 29:43

I know you've done a lot of research, a lot of building of units. Media literacy was really impressive whenever you present into the Illinois writing project during professional development. Now I want to ask, what do you find? Most interesting or fascinating with teaching and learning, just

Laurie Hendrickson: 30:05

learning, you know, learning about different topics. I mean, I just loved that. My whole teaching career has been a joy because of that. Just, you know, finding things and curating articles and reading books and figuring things out, and because, as a teacher, you can never learn everything, so there's always something to learn, and it changes so fast anyway. But I found that really interesting. I found it interesting too to get back to storytelling, to create units that tell a story, that have a beginning, a middle and end, you know, learning units that hit all the blooms, taxonomy items and to and it is a taxonomy, so it goes kind of in a linear line. So you can, can really organize your units to tell a story and to get from one point to another. So I guess that's what I really love about it. It's just challenging and fun and and I'm an introvert too, so, you know, to read and to go online. I mean, that's kind of my thing. You

Joi Patterson: 31:12

know, I was thinking about your career as a designer, and it seemed very natural that if you're going to do a career change to teaching that technology and instruction which fit in with your ability to design. Can you talk about how you have played a role in maybe helping other teachers or the school? Because I know you want to keep that continuity either between grade levels or what's going on in the school.

Laurie Hendrickson: 31:40

Yes, you know, I do, like I said, I have the luxury of time now that I'm retired to really think these things through. So this is what I teach in university class, or my workshops for the Illinois writing project. I try and show teachers how to make it student centered, how to design. And here's where my design experience really comes in. You want it to be attractive. You want people to be drawn to what you're doing. And the visual aspect of it does make a difference. If it's laid out in a way that makes it easier from to go from one topic to another that really makes a difference. And a long time ago in my career, I worked for the University of Chicago, and it was a research center where they did surveys. And so how those surveys looked was very important. And so I learned how to make things readable and how to allow you to follow from one thing to another easily. So, so I did learn a lot about that, and I try and do that whenever I'm doing something with my students to you know, chunk information, use colors to separate it, use lines, use motion, all of those things that I learned as a graphic designer come into play for online because it's a very visual medium, and it's all about what you're seeing. Because you're not really in the classroom anymore with all the bulletin boards and the things that are all around the room that kind of stimulate that creativity and so on.

Amy Vujaklija: 33:23

Wow. I think that that schools and teachers will be seeking some more of you to help them create the units that tell stories and to integrate more technology in a meaningful way as we kind of wrap up, I always like to ask our guests to share references, share researchers or other professionals in the field that inform your work, your research and your instruction.

Laurie Hendrickson: 33:56

Yeah, you know, I have so many mentors I and so many authors that I follow that I could never list them all. But you know, when I first got into teaching English language arts, my mentors were people like Nancy Atwell and Ralph Fletcher, Lucy Calkins, Katie Wood Ray, Kelly Gallagher, Troy Hicks and so many others and but I did list a few. I do have a few that I am using right now in my work on online learning and media literacy and creating, and one of them is create to learn. This is a book by Renee Hobbs. She's from the University of Rhode Island, I believe, and she is very into creating to learn and online learning, and she has a very active website. She I just recently joined a community of media literacy teachers and that we get together once a month and talk about video or documentary or a book. Or an article or something we've read, so she's just a great person to follow, and also Universal Design for Learning is a nice way to kind of organize your lesson plans, too. And I have this book called Teaching Every Student in the Digital Age that's by David Rose and Ann Meyer, and they talk about using UDL online, which is has been very helpful for me. I used to work in workforce with a woman named Holly Clark, and she was the Technology Specialist at our school for a little while. She's since moved to California and become a consultant, but she has a great book called the Google Infused Classroom, a guide to making thinking visible and amplifying student voice. And her name is Holly Clark, and she wrote this with a woman named Tanya Avra. And it is, it's a little book. It's very inexpensive, and I always recommend it to my technology students. It works together with making things visible, which is, which are a lot of formative assessments that can be used. So that's a great resource. And then I just today found some articles. One is called, how do you make zoom Breakout Rooms less boring? So this is a blog post by Bonnie Stacowiak, I think that's how you say her name, and she has a list of all these things that you can do to energize breakout rooms. And I just did an observation with my student teacher yesterday, and she did such a great job. Because what she did is she gave a very, very quick mini lesson, and she told the students exactly what they needed to know to do this assignment. And then she broke them up into breakout rooms and with a little activity that they had to do together. And I went in a couple of the rooms, and in one room I was in, the students had a question, and they, you know, if they were in the classroom, they would have immediately raised their hand to ask the teacher what to do. But they didn't. They figured out what they had to do to find the answer. And so I thought that was really eye opening. You know, this online learning might be a way for students to problem solve a little bit better than they have been, instead of just counting on the teacher to spoon feed them every single bit of information. And I think that is a good thing. The other one, oh, this is a really good one. The importance of building online learning communities. So. So this article gives tons and tons of tips and tons and tons of examples about what you can do to create that online learning. This is from value ed, and the author is Joi Donovan, and I just ran across him this morning when I was looking for some for some articles to read while I was having my coffee.

Amy Vujaklija: 37:55

Wow, you have shared such a wealth of resources, and I know that I'll be checking out some of these articles. I definitely need to understand how to make a zoom breakout room a little less boring. Absolutely well, and whenever I was using Breakout Rooms with my classes, I realized there's a maximum number, really, that you should have, because it's just nearly impossible to get to seven breakout rooms by the time you're at number seven and you realize they didn't quite go in the direction you were hoping they would. They've lost several minutes. So some of those tips will be extremely important for all of us, but we've also created this space where it's okay to have meetings online, or to have these breakouts and professional developments online. We are moving in a different direction. We'll, I think, be moving towards a blend of both of these in future, it's not going to be one or the other. I agree with

Laurie Hendrickson: 39:04

that. I think that's I think that's a good direction for us to be moving into.

Joi Patterson: 39:09

It was really wonderful having you today. Laurie, we've learned so much. I personally learned so much, and we have so much to share with our listeners. And like I said before, we're looking forward to having you back again. I think what I like most is the digital storytelling. I am so looking forward to maybe a demo of that.

Laurie Hendrickson: 39:32

Absolutely, I actually teach that a lot, so I'd be so happy to come in and share that with you. Great.

Amy Vujaklija: 39:40

Well. Thank you so much, and we look forward to that next session.

Laurie Hendrickson: 39:44

Well, this was fun for me too. Thank you so much. Thank

Amy Vujaklija: 39:48

you for listening to teaching and leading with Dr Amy and Dr Joi. Visit our website at G, O, V, S, t.edu/teaching and leading podcast. To see the show notes from this episode,

Joi Patterson: 40:05

we appreciate Governor State University's work behind the scenes to make publishing possible. Stay tuned for more episodes with Dr Amy and Dr Joi.