Reboot: Understanding the Sense of Belonging with Dr. Dawn Brown

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

belonging, students, feel, faculty, belongingness, space, work, people, initiatives, classroom, physical therapy, inclusion, diversity, faculty member, educators, create, academic, fitting, meaning

SPEAKERS

Joi Patterson, Amy Vujaklija, Dawn Brown

Dawn Brown: 00:03

Faculty and Staff recognize who they are in terms of the Big Eight for diversity, and then do you truly know your students?

Amy Vujaklija: 00:11

This episode was originally released under the podcast titled teaching and learning theory versus practice. This rebooted episode has been migrated to teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joy. I am Dr. Amy Vujaklija, Director of educator preparation.

Joi Patterson: 00:31

And I am Dr. Joy Patterson, Chief Diversity Officer. Our podcast addresses issues through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow up educators.

Amy Vujaklija: 00:46

So join us on our journey to become better teachers and leaders. So let's get into it.

Joi Patterson: 00:53

Hi Dr. Amy.

Amy Vujaklija: 00:57

Hello, Dr. Joy.

Joi Patterson: 01:00

I'm looking forward to today's conversation because this is right up my alley. So there's now that I'm in this new position of chief diversity officer, you know, the EI is my life, not that it wasn't before and in your position, I know that you're still working through a lot of diversity and equity and inclusion, challenges and opportunities. And that's where I started doing a lot of the DEI work when I was the director of educator preparation. So and it's something we talk about this all the time that no matter what topic we're talking about, we're always talking about an A Di, topic in the end. And so today we're actually going to talk about a real di topic, which is belonging, I have this little tagline on everything that I write, you know, diversity is a fact. Right, we are who we are. Equity is a choice. And we grapple with that all the time. When we see how things are, why are they the way they are? Is this by design. Inclusion is an action. And then what we're going to talk about today is belonging is an outcome.

Amy Vujaklija: 02:14

You know, whenever we start thinking about or talking about belonging, and it takes me back to school days, really how much do we think we belong in any given space? People who are adults now who just are so self assured they're so confident, they look like they belong in any space they that they enter, but a question that so when we're thinking about a 13 year old, a 15 year old, did that person always feel comfortable and confident? Was there some awkwardness in the very beginning? I'm sure there was. The longing is so much more. And I really want to unpack this concept of belonging as moving further and beyond fitting in with Dr. Don Brown. So Dr. Brown is an assistant professor in the governor State University Department of Physical Therapy. With over 23 years of clinical and educational experience. She completed a Bachelor of psychology degree and master physical therapy degree from Northwestern University, a doctor of physical therapy degree from Alabama State University, and a Doctor of Education degree in higher education administration from Northern Illinois University. She earned an American Board of physical therapy specialties board certification in orthopedic physical therapy, and uses this content expertise in her pedagogy and clinical experience in clinical practice. Her research agenda explores leadership, motivation, and belonging in physical therapy, education and clinical practice, all through the lens. As we were discussing earlier, Dr. Joy, diversity, equity and inclusion. Dr. Brown is an active member and leader within the American Physical Therapy Association, Illinois Physical Therapy Association, the American Council of academic physical therapy, American Academy of physical therapy, and National Association of Black physical therapist. Welcome, welcome to our podcast.

Dawn Brown: 04:48

Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here.

Joi Patterson: 04:50

Welcome, Dr. Brown. You know, we have to I got a little disclaimer here. We have to stop putting out our years of experience because we have about 75 years As between us, but then that doesn't sound good when you really think about it because you don't look a day over 30. So we're going to just scale that back, you know, I just can't imagine you having 23 years of experience, but your work shows that you do, you have accomplished a lot. And I really love that you have brought what you've done in the clinical practice, into this educational space, it makes it so meaningful for students to receive that information. So let's, let's get to you. So and, and I really want to talk to belonging to a Doctor Amy and I were having these little conversations about belonging, I talked to my son actually recently about belonging. And I don't even know if I want to share what he said. He was like, just go to work and do your job is like, Ah, it's not quite that easy, because I spend more time on my job than I do at home. So it's important to me emotionally, it's important to my psyche, that I feel like I belong. And whenever I'm in a position where I don't feel like I belong, or that I don't feel included, it sticks with me, it haunts me. And it can haunt me for a very, very, very long time. And, and just think there's people who are at all different kinds of levels. So if it affects me that way, it may affect someone even greater. And I may be talking about an incident, not a frequent occurrence, right. And so for the times that I felt like I didn't belong, I would say for the most part, they've been incidents, and that something that's been repetitive, so I'm going to disagree with my a person at type A personality son. And that it does matter greatly. And then it's, you know, it's just not okay to say get in there and just do your work, do your job, and go home. So but I want to talk about beyond your bio, what Dr. Amy, just read, what can you share about your experiences that bring the passion to this topic of belonging?

Dawn Brown: 07:28

Yes, I think beyond my bio, I look at you know, first looking at what really drove me into this as being a black physical therapist in a profession that is dominated by white females and not seeing myself reflected in the clinic, or even in education. But then I took a moment to reflect and say, well, when did this really began. And it began in my formative years, when I was in elementary school, middle school, high school, where I was usually the only meaning the only black person in spaces where the majority of my classmates and teachers were white, also being the only when it came to my socio economic upbringing, you know, being the person who had a lower socioeconomic status in a space where the majority of my classmates, given where I lived at the time, had a higher socioeconomic status. And I felt that even though I belong intellectually, academically, socially, I didn't belong back then I didn't really equate that term, of course, being younger that belonging or lack thereof is what I was experiencing. And so now that I'm immersed in this work, and I reflect upon that, that's what I was experiencing. But I think I began then. And then when I came to Illinois, and I went to, to my Bachelor's level program, and then my master's level program, I still felt the same way. Because in those institutions, predominately white institutions, I still felt that because of my race, and because of my socio economic background, and upbringing, that I still didn't belong socially, academically, yes, because I was always that 4.0 student or 4.0 plus student, I could I belong in that realm, but there was still something missing. However, the difference is now as an adult, is that I could try to create my own belonging and call attention to it. And then fast forward to present day being in spaces where I am that physical therapist, I am an educator, and this is my you know, I want to say, my passion, my life's work, if you will, to make sure that I have a sense of belonging, but not only myself, but other students and faculty and clinicians can create their own belonging and have that belongingness created for them.

Amy Vujaklija: 09:31

I love this, and I want to unpack this more. Join our talking a few minutes ago about conversations we've had with our families about belonging, but it's more than just fitting in because that's the conversation I had with with my teenager and about confidence, self confidence and not feeling awkward, but it's more than that. It is definitely moves beyond just fitting In and being like, part of the crowd, how would you define belonging help us understand that difference.

Dawn Brown: 10:08

Yeah. And that and that phrase that use fitting in, I think I cringe when I hear that phrase, especially when I'm part of interview processes or admissions processes for students or for faculty, and people say, Well, how do you fit? How will you fit in here. And when I think about belonging, it's not about fitting in. Because it's about bringing your own authentic self to the table, and getting people to appreciate what makes you you. And so when I think about belonging, and I think about some of the key psychological needs that we have, meaning autonomy that needs to have control over what we do our circumstances, meaning your competence, having that ability to master content, and then having belonging and being able to relate with other people and be with other people. Belonging is a feeling, it is something that you want to be able to say, hey, you know what I'm in this space, I'm bringing my true authentic self to this space, that I feel connected, I feel respected, I feel seen. And I'm not just trying to fit in and be like somebody else. And so when I think about belonging, and I put it in the safe perspective of diversity, equity and inclusion, belonging is that outcome. People know that diversity is about demographics, to a certain extent, who's in the room, people know that equity is about how do you allocate resources so that people have the ability to achieve and be successful? And then we think about inclusion as the behavior meaning who's at that table? Belonging is the ultimate outcome of all of the DEI initiatives and efforts? Meaning how can you truly show up and be your own authentic self, not have to code switch, not this template, not have to be tend to be something that you're not,

Joi Patterson: 11:48

I can relate to what you're saying, I have a science background also. So I have my undergraduate and graduate degree in science. So I've worked and you know, went to school in those same spaces, those STEM fields, where the bipoc population is extremely small, and hard to fit in. I want to talk about two things, a couple of things. So let's discuss how you achieve belonging in a general sense, because one of the things you said is that you have to create a sense of belonging for yourself, how do you achieve that expecially when you're the minority of whatever group you're part of, and kind of expand that like to our academic workplace, if you will? Yeah.

Dawn Brown: 12:36

And it's, I appreciate that question. It's challenging depending on who that person is, I can think about students, or faculty or staff. And to achieve that belonging, you have to have innately a sense of confidence to a certain extent, or having someone who you can view as an ally or an accomplished that can actually help you some people have the natural born talent or ability to be able to say, hey, you know what, I'm going to create the space for myself, I am going to take the initiative, I'm a go getter, I have this thought process of what's the worst that could happen if I advocate for myself, and other people need someone else to help them move along, especially when they're in places and spaces where they are the only where they are historically marginalized, or put to the side. And so to really be able to create it, it takes that individual to recognize, you know, what's different here? Why is it that I feel this way? Who can I talk to, to help me like you all use the word unpack, to unpack my feelings and my emotions associated with being perhaps the only or associated with being a person that no one looks to for advice, or to bring us bring in as part of the group? And then when it comes to the people that should help a person achieve a sense of belonging? Do they truly know what that means? And I think about academic spaces, and I look at faculty that are here to support students, when I think about staff who are here also to support students, do people truly know what belonging means in order for them to be able to create spaces where students and other faculty and other staff feel like they belong? And so the first thing is make having an awareness of what does that word mean? Especially in the context of diversity, equity and inclusion, because everyone tends to gravitate toward those three buzzwords.

Amy Vujaklija: 14:19

Okay, so, I want to keep pushing on this because as a faculty member, and and I'm in other spaces, too, I'm really, there's some tension here. So if belonging is bringing one's authentic self, how do we, we meaning staff, faculty, whatever role we have at the university, is it is an important role. So whatever that role is, how do we create the conditions that set up the environment to allow someone to bring their authentic self what is let's, let's push on that some more. I

Dawn Brown: 15:04

think than that, and for stopping when you say create that condition, when I think of myself as an educator or faculty member and other people, one of the first steps is to a recognize who you are and what are your identities? Because a lot of belonging is centered around, do people recognize, like the Big Eight, if you will, when it comes to diversity as far as race, ethnicity, gender, sex, age, disability, socioeconomic status, and the like? And do faculty and staff recognize who they are in terms of the Big Eight for diversity? And then do you truly know your students? Because sometimes faculty are teaching students, but they don't really know them? They don't even know their names. And so how can you teach students and try to create that sense of belonging, where you don't really know who's in your classroom? And so before you deliver that content, on day one, why not take a moment to step back and say, Hey, everyone, you know, I'm your instructor, here's who I am, make yourself vulnerable and courageous to share a little bit about yourself. And then do the same for your students to say, hey, tell me about yourself. Let's get let people get to know who you are, and appreciate you who you are. And then be able to use that those social cultural backgrounds in those identities. We that's your curriculum. And so center diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging into your curriculum. So that way, students are saying, hey, my professor got to know me, they know my name, they know a little bit about me. And then as I sit back for the next 15 weeks or so in a given semester, and I'm engaged with this course content, I actually see how the content is representative of me, I see where dei and B are threaded to the curriculum, I see the images, I see the references, I see, you know, the faculty member asking my opinions about certain things. And so I think that's a great start, that has to be, you know, initiated at the very beginning, and threaded through the rest of the semester. And even in the academic year,

Joi Patterson: 16:56

I want to ask you something difficult here, I want to create a scenario for you. And I see this quite often. And how we make students and our colleagues feel like they belong. When you have a situation where a faculty invite students in their classroom, in their office, let's work on this project after class. And you were never asked. And so technically, the faculty didn't do anything to you. Right? They just didn't include you. And so what's at stake? So it's not always what you do, right? Sometimes, is what you don't do, then what you avoid, and sometimes that avoidance is because you're uncomfortable with maybe that gender, or that gender preference, or that ethnicity, or that behavior, you know, so what's at stake, let's talk about what's at stake, what is the impact when faculty do not intentionally, you know, because we can do all these things, wonderful things in the classroom, right? When they're not intentional about creating an environment of belonging, so like in that circumstance where you weren't invited, right, yeah. So what's the stake? When that happens?

Dawn Brown: 18:37

The key thing that's at stake is student's academic and educational success that's at stake. And I know that faculty, you know, unconsciously or unintentionally may, you know, ask certain groups of students to meet them after hours in the office to work on projects, and they've excluded students, whether they're doing it explicitly or implicitly, it's there that I take a step back and say, Okay, well, then how can we mitigate that further to make sure that academic success isn't being compromised? What's the responsibility of not just that faculty member, but let me let's zone out for a second, that faculty is a member of a department? And so what kind of culture did that department have or implement when it came time to educate faculty and develop faculty with regards to what belongingness is? And how to thread that through your courses in your curriculum and with your engagement with students and then zoom out even further? What about the college so what have they done when we have faculty development to make sure that faculty and your your directors, your chairs, etc, understand truly, what belongingness is what Diversity Equity and Inclusion are and how that's imperative for students success, and then zoning out even further from university wide? Okay, so what are some of the initiatives that university is doing that's responsible for the faculty who are in turn responsible for the students so that they can mitigate some of those was implicit biases or unintentional actions where they've left students behind, but then also saying How about on the student level, we do these development programs for faculty and for staff. But do we do that for students to allow them to advocate for themselves. So when they see a faculty member, excluding them, whether it's intentional or unintentional, they can advocate for themselves and speak up and say, Hey, Dr. So and so, you know, I recognize that you allowed this team of students to go to your office hours to be able to work on projects, but you didn't include me why. And so we have to work to also empower students that advocated speak up for themselves, to help achieve their sense of belonging as well. And so the impact is there, they're being able to allow them to thrive to to find and facilitate that sense of purpose, to create space, not only to be authentic, but to say, hey, I have a space where I truly feel like I belong, because my faculty member, my professor recognizes this. But I can also stand up and say, hey, you know, what about me?

Amy Vujaklija: 21:03

Let's talk about the students for a minute. So what, to what extent do students feel they belong? In? What areas? Can we actually measure? belonging? How do we do this?

Dawn Brown: 21:17

I think there's many areas to measure belonging, I know that some people think because I said earlier that, you know, belonging is more of a feeling. And people are like, well, it's a feeling how do you quantify that? Well, you can quantify it, you can qualify it, or I think, from a resource perspective, and to get, you know, from a qualitative perspective, saying, you know, how do you feel let's talk about this, let's do focus groups, let's do climate surveys, etc. And using that information to quantify it as well to say, hey, who feels like they belong? So not only looking at belongingness, from a deficit perspective, but who feels like they belong? And then who feels like they don't belong? And then that key question is why? Why do you feel like you belong? Why do you feel like you don't belong? And what instances? Is it academic? Is it social? And then let's use that data to be able to determine what our next steps, I think, oftentimes, you know, for us to be able to measure it, we have to be able to do that information gathering, let's sit back first and say, Why do we need to measure? Is it? Is it a thing? It's an issue, if you will? And then who's involved with measuring it? And then once we measure it, and we determine, yes, there's belonging here, but over there, there's not belonging, then what are we doing with that data that we create that we collected to create initiative, sustainable initiatives to ensure that students and faculty and staff can be long and not only survive, but thrive within academic spaces. So you know, we're working on professional development, and you can do a lot of dei wonderful professional development. But then there's the heart matter, right? There is the heart matter, we're working to create culturally relevant thinking and leading classrooms, we're implementing Crtl standards, so that they have the knowledge. And I think that's important, I think that's a really important part, to have, first, the knowledge because you don't know what you don't know. And then that disposition. So this is a little harder, because now I have to have the disposition, I have to have the desire, to want to change, to want to do better, to want to inclu to want to expand out of my comfort level, before I can put any actions in place. So what do we do? And we're not even and I'm not even necessarily talking about the laws that are resistant, because you have some that are just completely closed minded and resistant. But even if you're open, so what do we do? You know, what does that look like when we're trying to change the dispositions when we're trying to change the hearts and minds which need to change before any action can take place? Right. And that, and that goes back to I know, I've discussed with you and many people before about how I look at, you know, awareness comes first to understand, you know, what the topic is, if there's an issue to understand that issue, and then after that comes attitudes, and like you said, how do you get at the heart? How do you how do you see and determine if people's attitudes towards belonging have changed for the better? Or if they have attitudes toward belonging that they question why it's necessary that they have a more positive outlook and a more positive opinion about what belonging truly means, how it impacts the the key invested parties in higher education, your students or faculty or staff, and then you start leaning toward action. And one thing when you're in that, that attitude, space, if you will, after you gain some awareness is to say, how does this resonate with you because on some end, you You would think that once you talk about belonging in the context as well as Dei, because you can't just have it by itself, that it's going to resonate somehow, in whole or in part with the people who are invested in this with the people that are at the table discussing this. And so if you understand how it resonates with you, and you explicitly ask them, you know, what is your attitude about this now, you know, be transparent and be specific, hey, how do you feel about this? Oftentimes, when we get to topics like, Listen, I don't like using the word sensitive topics when we talk about D IB. But we will shy away from it to say, oh, you know, I don't want to really get into my feelings with it. Why not take a deeper dive into it and say, Hey, how's it resonate with you? What is your attitude about it? And be transparent? If you have a if you have a negative attitude? Let us know. If you have a positive attitude, let us know. And let's figure out how we can use this to move toward action, and then move toward accountability after that. All

Joi Patterson: 25:53

right. I think we're in such a politically correct environment, that it's hard for people to share their trueness. And because what are the repercussions if you were in a safe space, right, and we say we're in a safe space. And we could talk about these hard topics. And then I tell you something, you know, that may offend someone else? And then how am I looked upon. So even though we try to create these environments, to say you're in a safe space, you can say what you want to say, there's still some parameters around that, right? And try to help that person grow. I did want to make a statement before I talk about something else. I talked to my daughter yesterday. By the way, she's a teacher, she's been teaching for a long time now. And she also does baking on the side for extra money, and her husband's a cop, and he works. Another job too. So you know, they're have this family, and they have to have all these jobs to make ends meet. That's no fun. But you know, I was like, hey, you know, you can work in this school district, blah, blah, blah, blah, it's only five minutes more longer than your school district. And you can earn $20,000, making more. And I was like, it's like, it's not rocket science, this thing that just sounds like something you should do. And you know what she says, Well, what about the teachers that I work with? What about my group? What about my team? I was like, is that team so important to you? Where you can't earn an extra $20,000 a year, she was like, kind of, that's what belonging feels like. And so that's how we really built retention, right? You know, retention in the classroom. retention in the workplace, is having that feeling where I want to be here, it may not be perfect. But it's my imperfection right now. And I own this. So when she told me that I was like, Oh, that's really what belonging feels like. But how about we? What about money? Can we make some friends at the other place? Like this is like so you can see she and my daughter, my son, they're just complete. Everything they do, but I do have a real question here. I want to go back to the climate survey. We talked about that. And actually, Governor State University, we just launched diversity climate survey, really important. And we only do this every few years. Because, you know, like you say, we have to want to know first, right? So we have to want to know, we have to assess right and see how we're feeling. See how our faculty, our staff, our administrators, and most importantly, our students are feeling. And then the plan is to share that information, right to analyze it, and then share it, we'll dissect it, we'll share it. And then in this question is for you to Dr. Amy. So what do you do with the results of that information? When we dissect it, and we talk about it? And you see in black and white? You know, for example, that faculty need mentoring students need mentoring, you know, your students in the belonging categories low, you know, what do you do with that information? And this is for both of you.

Dawn Brown: 29:35

Right, I think with that information, then it's about prioritizing what you need to resolve if you are what you need to solve. So you have that data, like you said, you hopefully are being transparent with that data. So all the key invested parties, whether it be administrators, you know, department leaders, the faculty, the staff and the students, that you let them know the results of this, that you're not holding it back and then you go back to the beginning and say, Well, why don't we Do this climate survey in the first place. And so if you did it in the first place so that you can create that sense of belonging among all these key investor parties, then you start saying, Well, how do I use this data to create initiatives that are and I always use the word sustainable, because you want these efforts to be sustainable. So how can I create standards, if you will, whether it be university wide standards, whether it be standards that are from a college perspective, or level, whether it's from a department level? How do I create some guidelines for faculty members and for staff and for students, if you will, to help implementers center diversity, equity, inclusion and belongingness in their curriculum, you know, even going higher up the level? What are some best practices that the institution as a whole needs to look at when it comes to belonging as well as Dei? What are some best practices that we need to really implement, and really make sure that all of the leaders, the administrators within each of these departments, and at the colleges understand, and then even further from there saying policies that's at the upper echelon and say, Okay, if we really want to create certain initiatives from an institution wide level, then you may have to put in policies that say, Hey, as faculty members, hopefully your attitudes in the right place, and you understand why we have to have you do certain things with regard to your curriculum, for instance, to center diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging into your curriculum, regardless of whether you teach a science course, you teach a music course, there's room to put that in there to make sure that these things are sustainable.

Amy Vujaklija: 31:30

I want to even back up further. I think we really need to hold space for people to process. And people need to have open minds, and there is no denying hard data, right, when results come back, and there's this clear indication that work needs to be done. Or on the other side of that, that we're doing good things, you know, let's sustain those good things. But also address what's what the problems are. So keeping that open mind, don't go into denial, they'll say, well, there was a global pandemic. I mean, yes, we all realize that everyone has some pet obstacles, we've had some barriers. But there have also been great strides in developing a sense of in creating a sense of belonging, no matter where you are, whether it's online or on campus. So no excuses. Taking the data, as they are all of the pieces, not just some of the pieces, and identify the good, that is kind of nice to recognize that there's good and make sure it's sustained. But yeah, I think that just knowing the why I know, anytime, and when I even first started teaching, we would be asked to do something, is the new initiative or a new policy. There was always so much resistance when we did not know the why. But you could just really see me visibly see almost a physical difference in people when you explained the why. And it was this, Oh, of course, that's why we're doing this action, are taking these steps, and everyone would be on board most everyone. And so knowing the why doing the climate survey, knowing the why, looking at things straight, you know, right, but it's right in front of us think it's all important, you know, and having these conversations as well.

Dawn Brown: 34:09

And I appreciate what you said What the Why because I look at my research is also grounded in motivation. And when you talk about intrinsic motivation or internal motivation and extrinsic motivation, it starts with that why when you can explain to people the why and allow them to process like you said the why then they become motivated and hopefully first or more so intrinsically motivated, internally motivated, say, Hey, this is needed. And this is why I need to do this. And then of course, you might have to dangle some carrots in front of them to say also, you know, if you do this, this will also happen with regards to extrinsic rewards, etc. But the why is important to mobilize and motivate people, faculty, staff, administrators, etc. To really take this to heart, the belongingness initiatives to heart and really want to put it into action.

Joi Patterson: 34:53

Mm hmm. If you ask my daughter she would say as a $25 gift card so she is extremely motivated. by money, and I mean, which is not a lot of money, but when her principal comes in to do classroom observations, if you get a certain score, you get a $25 gift card. So she welcomes it every time come to my classroom anytime, because I need $25. But it also says I see you, I recognize that you're doing a good job. Because I mean, the $25 is not a lot. But it goes a long way. And I feel appreciate, I feel like you saw me Yes, still appreciate it. So there's things that you can do. So what are what are signs I want to talk about? I want to help some some faculty out here and out here. What are some signs that students and sometimes even educators, it's not just our students, we lose faculty too. So it's not about just student retention, it's also about employee retention to so what are some signs that we can look for when students or the educators feel like they don't belong? And the opposite of that? What do we see as signs when they do feel like they belong? So first, what are the signs that will tell us okay, there's a problem, the students don't feel like they belong, or this student doesn't feel like they belong? This faculty member doesn't feel like they belong? What are what are those signs look like?

Dawn Brown: 36:27

And I think the signs are pretty much similar. When you think about students, we know what are the signs when they don't belong? When you think about faculty and staff, what are the signs that do they exhibit when they don't belong? They there's, there's overlap. And one of the main things is lack of engagement. And so if I'm looking at my students and the classroom, and they're no longer participating when they did before, or if they never participated, they're still in the corner, they sit in the back of the classroom, and they're not raising their hands. They're not really speaking out, when I had them doing active learning or team based learning, they're not speaking up in a group so they don't engage. And the same thing goes for faculty, where there's a lack of engagement where there might have been more engagement before. And so you see this withdrawal from taking initiative to do things from volunteering to do certain things from the student perspective, as well as from the faculty perspective. And you start thinking, you know, is it because they feel like they don't belong, or there's something going else going on. And I kind of relate this to another topic that I talked about when I talked about quiet quitting. And that occurs for faculty members, a curse for staff, and it can occur for students where they're in the classroom, they're present, physically, but mentally, they're not really present, they've checked out because they feel like they don't belong. They feel like what's the point, as long as I keep my head down, and I complete my assignments on time, I do well, on my exams on my quizzes, and I get the grade to move on to the next course and the next semester, and then this semester leads into graduation, then I'm fine with it, I don't, I don't need to do anything else. Because what's the point, my professors don't see me my classmates don't see me, I'm still going to get this degree because eventually, somewhere when I'm done, hopefully someone outside external to university, they see me. And so the or on the complete opposite. Instead of withdrawing, you might have people who don't feel like they belong, whether they're students or faculty, they actually go the opposite extreme, that they're more loud and more boisterous. Because they're trying to create this belonging to try to draw attention to themselves. So people see them for who they are. And that may or may not work for them. But that's the opposite extreme, where they're like, Hey, I'm here, you're going to, you know, my presence is here, and I'm gonna put myself in this space, this team over here doesn't want me while I'm gonna go over there and say, Hey, I'm your new team member. So you have to walk them in, you have to have me as one of your teammates.

Joi Patterson: 38:48

I know, it's really it's really funny that you talked about that, and students withdrawing. And Amy's heard this before my husband when he was before he was retired, he was at a school where it was 100%, free reduced lunch. So it was a title one school. And on Fridays, he would cut hair. So he would take about a dozen boys hair, cut hair, and then he would take bring their shirts, home uniform white shirts, and then I would wash them, because they wear those shirts all week. And it makes such a difference. Because when you don't feel good about yourself, and people are treating you certain ways and not including you, then it impacts your ability to learn. Because you're not going to raise your hand. You're not going to say I know the answer. Even if you know the answer. You're not going to put yourself out there when you feel like you don't belong. So there's a lot I mean, I just think educators have so much work to do, right and making people feel like they belong because readiness to learn. erm, is directly tied to belongings or belonging is directly tied to readiness, however you want to say it and students withdrawing, can't learn exactly, you know, they're not going to show up in your office, right? They're not going to ask you any questions, you know, coming to school is just a means to an end, right? And they may be super intelligent, and maybe they can get through a lot of things. But that readiness to learn and to engage is not there unless we can make them feel like they belong. And which is why I say sometimes it just feels intentional, right, is that if we know this as educators, then why don't we employ that? Exactly. And I guess I can say the same for administration to about employees, you know, faculty and staff. You know, if we know that this is how you make people feel included and make people feel like they belong, why aren't these practices and processes in place?

Dawn Brown: 41:09

Exactly.

Amy Vujaklija: 41:10

I think that leads to some assumptions, though, right? I think that, I mean, we're talking often in on this podcast about K 12, educators in students. So when we say students, sometimes we automatically start thinking about the younger students, and of course, creating that environment where they belong, and like everyone gets along together. But also, we are talking about the older student, we're talking about university students as well. But I think I think there are some assumptions that people make about belonging, of what might some assumptions be in your experience,

Dawn Brown: 41:56

right. And I appreciate you saying that, because when we think about belonging, you know, we should be thinking about it from elementary, middle school and high school level. But now that we're in post secondary, higher education, we assume that because when you enter college, for the most part, you're about 18. And usually 18 is the threshold or the cutoff for being an adult. And in some spaces, it's 21. And people say, Well, hey, you're an adult now. So you need to create your own belonging. And once you're in this academic institution, it's not the responsibility per se, of the institution, or the faculty to help you achieve that you're an adult, figure it out yourself, you've, you've come to this part, you're more independent now. So it is your responsibility. And I think that when you have this assumption that, you know, the younger adults and even older adults that are in spaces, you know, within colleges and universities, that they can create their own belonging, then you're missing the point, because our role as educators, as leaders, as administrators, is to help them center and find their sense of belonging. I think also, the assumption is that certain social cultural groups, and when I talk about the Big Eight, if you will, that gender, age, race, ethnicity, etc, that people have assumptions that certain social cultural groups have a better sense of belonging than other groups do. And so certain groups now will be treated less equitably, or, or not focused on when it comes to belonging, because of who they are, you know, everyone has an element of power and privilege. But some people might say, well, because of your gender, and because of your age, and your ethnicity, you know, you don't need this belonging. For instance, if you're a white male, for instance, some people might say, well, you should have belonging, because you've had certain privileges, historically, certain privileges and power afforded to you. So let's not focus on you. And you if you're a black female, for instance, historically, you've probably not had these spin spaces where you felt like you belong, or you've been marginalized. So maybe we need to focus on you more for belonging. And so we need to challenge those assumptions and get the facts. So just because something has historically been done, doesn't mean right now in present day, that we should transfer generalize those assumptions for our students based upon their age, again, their gender, their their race, their ethnicity, their disability, and so on, and so forth. You make such great points, and just like scribbling furiously, all of these notes and the strategies you've shared with us, and just some, some ideas to really take me out to kind of internalize and really take home. I'm wondering if you could also so that we can include in our show notes, some resources that you can draw our audience to, for more information for bedside reading, or to anything that you would recommend. And I think that there's, you know, for, there's tons of resources for bedside reading, I know that, you know, I'm in a clinical space where I do a lot of my belongingness research from a clinical space, but you know, there's, I would say for people to you know, not necessarily say that you have to focus on one a specific book or one specific research article, if you will, but taking the time to say, okay, you know, let me review some of these climate surveys that are out there not necessarily to say let's implement them, but see what they contain. And some of that information in these climate surveys you can use and implement it into your classroom, you can use and implement within your, your department within your college within the university. I know that with Governor state's diversity equity inclusion council that they're reading, a belong this book by Terrell straight horn and that book, you know, centers belonging, and allows you to really look at belonging from the lens of academic, social and university, and how faculty can prioritize and really look at strategies and initiatives to use belonging to make, you know, to allow their students to achieve academic success. And I know that, you know, in my research, I look at, you know, I research a lot of belongingness theories. So looking at some of these theories from way back in the 90s. I know one that stands out to me as my master and Leary in 1995, there belong in his theory, like looking at some of the older literature to look at how belongingness came to be, even though fast forward to present day belongingness is in a different context, so to speak, but looking at, you know, just some background research about what belongingness truly is, I think that's a place where people really need to start to really understand the foundations, if you will, of belonging, and then be able to move out of that space to look at more robust measures of belonging, and how they can really internalize it, understand it, and then move beyond that and apply it in their academic spaces.

Joi Patterson: 46:37

I think we are ready to write a whole book of lists, these are things that you can do to make people feel like they belong. And sometimes people need that what are some what are some strategies that I can employ? One of the things that I would do right away the first day of class, I would tell students bring a me bag, if you don't have a meat bag, pick five things on your person. Because the five things that you carry with you are significant to you. If you come to class, and you got five things that they have meaning to you, I say pick those five things and tell us why you have those things, you know, why are these things significant? And, you know, I've been asking that question for a long time, this new generation, everybody has their phone. So everybody wants their phone to be one of their five, because it has value to them for a lot of different reasons. And some of that is just for connection, who's on the other side of that phone. You know, the other thing in meetings, you know, when we have meetings and people are doing reports, I mean, the simple thing of rotating names every time is great, because what do you do? If you're always the last one, you know, people are tired of listening, you've run out of time, and you get shortchanged? You know, just switching it up switching, you know, seating arrangements, you know, just doing things to acknowledge people equally in that space. So I think we'll be waiting for Dr. Don Brown book. And you're doing a lot of research, you have articles, and you do want a lot of presentation. But we're looking forward to that book. On belonging. Down. I spoken into existence.

Dawn Brown: 48:31

That's right. Like I liked what you said about like, during meetings, like what I do in my in the classrooms I teach is that before I even start by content, I say any questions and celebrations because I go back to questions from the previous lectures that I've had, but what are we celebrating? And I think just, I always say little things because they're not just little things, but just saying celebrating people and saying, you know, who has a birthday today, and when someone has a birthday, it happened yesterday. I'm like, Hey, everyone, let's sing. You know, who has something that they're celebrating? Let's apply them. So that way people not only feel seen, but they feel like they belong because they see that they're being valued and appreciated in the classroom.

Joi Patterson: 49:07

I think my best belonging strategy, my memory is not as great as it was then. But I would print all the faces of my students. This is college, of course, and I would print all of their faces because I can you know, they had to take ID pictures. And I would know their names before class and they were always amazed. Like exactly, as you know, call Amy, can you tell me? How does she know me that she's, you know, always amazed and feel like oh, she knows me we engage with each other once before and it makes all the difference in the world and how Amy is going to react to me calling her name is instead of hey, you can you think Amy Now sometimes people don't look like they're photo after wave brands. I have to wait one of them phrases, like, Okay, this is her,

Dawn Brown: 50:03

especially as the years progressed. And then you see, like, we have cohorts in physical therapy. So then the next year, they look different. But like you said, learning their names is key. But there's something about them. Like when they happen to tell you something before you're like, hey, you know, you told me that your your grandma was sick, how's she doing? So remembering something about your students that you can bring up the next time? And I think, you know, me being a physical therapist, I do that with my patients. And when they come back in, I'm not just saying, Hey, let me go ahead and treat that body part. But hey, you told me that your daughter got married? How was that celebration? I know. It goes a long way. It does.

Joi Patterson: 50:34

You have to remember to do that equally. Yes. Before Yes. And not just with a few. But this has been amazing. This is a great conversation. As you can see, we could talk about this all day. And it is something that we should continue to talk about. I think the more we talk about it, people will see themselves. Right. Right. And they will begin to grow. You know that is to go.

Amy Vujaklija: 51:00

Yes, this has been a great conversation. I so appreciate you being here with us today. And I know that we will need to have another conversation. Yes,

Joi Patterson: 51:11

Dr. Don Brown, we have many DEI conversations to have in the future. So we're looking forward to you coming back on podcast.

Dawn Brown: 51:20

Yes, I appreciate you all. I welcome an opportunity to continue the conversation.

Amy Vujaklija: 51:26

Thank you for listening to teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joy. Visit our website at govst.edu/teaching and leading podcast to see the show notes from this episode.

Joi Patterson: 51:43

We appreciate Governor State University's work behind the things to make publishing possible. Stay tuned for more episodes with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joy