Transforming Literacy: A Conversation with Kellyn Sirach and Kim Tate

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

literacy crisis, Illinois literacy plan, teacher voice, evidence-based practices, structured literacy, teacher preparation, professional development, student outcomes, reading intervention, literacy leadership, diverse texts, critical literacy, teacher retention, local control, lifelong learning

SPEAKERS

Amy Vujaklija, Kellyn Sirach, Joi Patterson, Kim Tate

Kim Tate: 00:03

That was a moment when we came together and we said, let's do something. If we do something, we're going to help all of our kids.

Amy Vujaklija: 00:10

Welcome to our podcast, teaching and leading with Dr Amy and Dr Joi. I am Dr Amy Vujaklija, Director of Educator Preparation and I

Joi Patterson: 00:22

am Dr. Joi Patterson, Chief Diversity Officer, our podcast addresses issues through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow as educators. So join

Amy Vujaklija: 00:37

us on our journey to become better teachers and leaders. So let's get into it. Hello. Dr Joi,

Joi Patterson: 00:47

hello. Dr, Amy, I'm happy about our conversation today. It's very interesting, I should say, not necessarily happy about it, but it is very interesting the conversation that we're going to have today, and we've been talking about it for a few years now. So I want some interesting information about our topic today, which is kind of disheartening. And this information comes from a resource called IPM newsroom. It says that over one over one in three Illinois students, that's 38% did not have basic reading skills by fourth grade. And according to the 2022 national assessment for Educational Progress, this number is actually above the national average, if you can believe that. So when you look nationally, not just in Illinois, I mean 38% is bad, and that's in the state of Illinois. Going to be talking about the state of Illinois today, and what we're doing about this number, because greatly we don't think that it's good enough, right? So that's a great thing, that we don't think this number is good enough. It's not but to think that this number is above the national average,

Amy Vujaklija: 02:01

we will not be talking about this particular topic today, but it does underscore how important literacy is, absolutely they do studies on third grade literacy, and you know what They do with those studies, you determine what number of jails and they need to build our

Joi Patterson: 02:25

pipeline to prison based on third grade scores. So that's that's actually true. There's a lot of research done around that, and with prisons becoming a private industry, this is the data that we use, but we're working to outsmart them. So I'm interested in hearing from our guests today that leads us on that path to increasing literacy in the state of Illinois.

Amy Vujaklija: 02:51

So with the Illinois comprehensive literacy plan, we have two people who were the front runners, who were authors on the original document, the original draft. First of all, we have Kim Tate, who is national and board certified and a dual language instructional coach at international Prep Academy in Champaign, Illinois. Kim is passionate about connecting identity to literacy and writing for authentic purposes. She is the recipient of the Golden Apple Award for Excellence in Teaching in 2023 and NCTE early career educator of color Leadership Award in 2022 in addition to being a children's fiction enthusiast, she is a committee member for the Charlotte Huck Award for Outstanding fiction. Kim has served as a Teach Plus Illinois Senior Policy Fellow from 2022, to 2023 National Writing Project. Panda fellow from 2020, to 2021. And cohort member of the Pulitzer Center's 1619, Project Education Network in 2022. Kim received her BS in elementary education from Millikin University in her master's in education, in education policy organization and leadership from the University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign, we also have with us today, Kellyn Sirach, who is the reading content specialist for the Illinois specific learning disabilities SLD Support Project. She has experience working with pre kindergarten through college level students in literacy development, while most of her work has been in middle schools, middle school like us, Joi, she is currently working toward her certified academic language therapy, c, a, l. Certification and 2022 2023 Teach Plus policy, fellow alumni who worked on literacy policy in the state of Illinois in 2016 Kellen was awarded the 30 under 30 award from the International Literacy Association. She is a board member for everyone reading Illinois and the reading league Illinois. Kellen is passionate about providing resources, professional development and coaching to school districts, teachers and families to ensure that every single child has the access to learn how to read. Welcome to our podcast, Kellen and Kim,

Joi Patterson: 05:50

good morning. Kellyn, good morning. Kim, how are you this morning?

Kellyn Sirach: 05:55

Good thanks for having us. You

Joi Patterson: 05:58

all are looking bright and shiny. You all are the ultimate educators. Those bios are superb. Okay, so beyond the bio, want to get to know you a little bit more in relationship to this topic that we're going to talk about today. And Doctor Amy and I, before you came on, we were just talking about the literacy level and how low it is like in Illinois, only 38% of third graders already can read by fourth grade, you know, and we're above average. And so those numbers are dismal. So we're glad that you're in agreement that those numbers are just too horrible, and we're going to do something about it. But Kellyn, let's start with you. What is your story about getting involved? Just very briefly, tell us how you got involved in literacy.

Kellyn Sirach: 06:49

Sure. Yeah, so I actually went to SIU Carbondale and got my degree in elementary education with a middle school endorsement. And I did not want to get my middle school endorsement, because my dream was to teach kindergarten. And so my first job right out of college, I taught kindergarten, and I absolutely loved it, but unfortunately, I wanted to get into a public school setting and make a little bit more money. And so then I got a job as a fifth through eighth grade ELA teacher when I was terrified. But that is the year that I fell in love with teaching, because I got to work with these students who were just learning about themselves and learning, you know, who they were and their passions and all of that. But it was also there that, you know, I was under the assumption that, okay, they're in middle school, they know how to read, right? Well, I was absolutely wrong. And so it was there that I was really learning a lot about how to support students at the middle level who really struggled to read. And so that's where I started. I was like, I need to learn more about this, because I don't merely know as much as I need to. So I went back to grad school to become a reading specialist, and I've been in middle school ever since, and I then ended up moving up to Central Illinois, where I taught eighth grade. CO taught ELA, and it was no different. I had students general education and special education students in my classroom who just could not read the words on a page, and it broke my heart, because I was giving them these texts that were amazing and life changing, and, you know, things that they could learn about the world and themselves, and they were not able to access that text. And so I went back, and I ended up getting some additional training, like Gordon Gillingham and now my certified academic language therapy certification to really, truly learn how to support these students, regardless of how old they are, because it's never to learn how to read. And so my passion really lies with my middle school students who have experienced years of academic failure and really helping them access text, both through an intervention, and then supporting them in the general education classroom too.

Joi Patterson: 09:02

What a professional educator that I mean that you've gone through great lengths to hone your skill. Kim, you have quite the journey even to becoming a teacher. So if you could briefly just tell us how you got involved in teaching and tell us about your first experience working in literacy.

Kim Tate: 09:23

Well, I will admit I was one of those students who said, I am never going to be a teacher when I grow up, because my mom was a teacher, and I, bless her, she worked for CPS for many years and retired from there, and I just saw the work, the long hours, and I just thought, I'm I'm not going to do this. And so I worked in the private sector for a little bit. Um, ended up working, um. So as an attendance center manager at the alternative high school where I encountered and this was a new program that our school district had opened to reduce the dropout rate and so to give students an alternative pathway to recover credits to learn in a smaller environment. And so the plan was that they would be successful and be able to graduate. And it was a wonderful plan. The problem is, and I think we see this across the state. So many students matriculate to higher grades without having learned how to read. And as you get older, that just makes everything so much more difficult and frustrational. And so I met a student who part of my my role there was, I did intake, and so I took in applications, and we scored them and and that sort of thing. So we had accepted a student, and she had enrolled, and in her interview, she was just really gregarious, and she had such personality. And I thought, wow, she's going to be one of our success stories. And you know, come to a particular day, she was very frustrated, had a moment, and, you know, shouted some words that were little spicy, and said, This is stupid. I am not coming back. And she stormed out of the door. And, you know, I saw it, and there was just something within me that said, No, I'm not willing to let you walk out whatever the issue is, we can fix it. And so I, you know, stormed out the door. I chased after her, you know, we ended up having a brief conversation on the steps of the building, and she just broke down, weeping, and everything in me, my heart, I felt so much empathy for her. And she opened up her backpack, and she said, she pulled out a book, she said, I can't read this. And everything was linked to the text. The classroom participation was linked to the text. The response to the prompts was linked to the text. So everything so her ability, as Kellyn indicated, to not be able to read those words on a page, rendered her just completely outside of that classroom space, of that ELA classroom space, and imagine what it feels like to walk into a space every day, unable to interact or to do anything and to watch people around you, you know, participating and learning and growing. And I just I one thing about my personality, I am unwilling to see children fail. And so I said, Well, there's a way that we can make this work. Okay, you can't read. And I just said, I said, you can't you you're having struggles, or you're having difficulty. Well, let's just look at the page. And now, had no idea what any of it meant, nothing. She She said, nothing. I can't read any of this. And so at that point, I thought, Okay, well, I'm dating myself, but there's these things called iPods, and I had one, and I thought, Okay, well, we have audiobooks. If I look this text up, which the text was The Kite Runner, I said, this is probably an audiobook version. So I found it, and I downloaded it to the iPod, and we made a plan, and I said, I want you to listen to this. We'll take a chapter. We'll try to do a chapter a day. We can't get through a chapter. I will give you this iPod to take home on your ride home, and you continue to listen to this. And so we made a plan that she would come in before my work hours started, before school started, and for 30 minutes, we would listen to the book and debrief. And so as she gave me her thoughts and her opinions, I would scribe and I would write them down, and we sort of synthesized what her ideas were, and we put those note cards to the side for her what would be her final essay for the text for the book. And as we were making our way through the novel, I just got to see how brilliant she was, her thinking, the connection she was making to a character in a whole different sense. Learning in a whole different country, and seeing how that related to her lived experience in the here and now, in Champaign, Illinois. And it was so powerful. And I thought, this is the power of literacy. This is what I experienced as a child. And I'm baffled that children of today I'm not experiencing that. And so that's when I started thinking, Well, how do we help students like this learn how to read the words on the page? I'm sure there's a class for that. Maybe I should go back to school and do that work. And so I was fortunate. We had a great assistant superintendent who supervised our program, and she actually just how things align. She said, I wonder, are you interested in teaching? And I was like, Well, I wasn't, but kind of now maybe I am. And yeah, she put me in contact with our HR director, and the Champaign Unifor district was amazing. They had to grow your own program, and so they said, we will get you certified to teach. And they did,

Amy Vujaklija: 16:18

and we saw in the bio just the where that journey has led you, which is amazing. The Kite Runner could not have been a more perfect audio book. It is a powerful listen, and it's compelling and it's sad and it's painful. Wow. What a history there. Let's bring us, both, all of us, to the present day, Illinois has passed the comprehensive literacy plan, and the two of you had key involvement at its very earliest draft. What led to that involvement in the Illinois comprehensive literacy plan. Kellyn, you want to start us off?

Kellyn Sirach: 17:07

Yeah. So even before becoming a Teach Plus policy fellow, I was like, Kim, I was I can't, I will not allow my students or children to fail. And so, you know, I was scouring the internet and trying to find organizations in Illinois that were also equally as passionate about literacy. And so I actually stumbled upon something called the Illinois early literacy coalition, and I joined them, and I was like, How can I help? Like, I'm a teacher, like, I see this. And so got involved with them, and they were integral. They were the ones that drafted the bill that it had as the, you know, do the comprehensive literacy plan and a couple of other things. And so I was involved with them, and then I'm so grateful that I would be able to become a teachable policy fellow too. And just, you know, the scars aligned, because there was a group of us that were all passionate about literacy, and Kim being our Senior Policy Fellow. So she led our led our group. And so that's kind of how we got involved in regard to the the draft version of the plan. And I am thankful that, as they as is the convened stakeholders that they included teacher voice. I mean, we were just two of the teachers, but there were a couple of other teachers on there too. Because so often, you know, we have these, these documents and, you know, what have you, but, but teachers aren't at the table. And one quote that I will never forget that. I think it was 2018 Illinois Teacher of the Year, Dr Lindsay Jensen. She always says, if you're not at the table, you're on the menu. And so again, I'm so grateful that they, they included teacher voice in that, because, again, we're the people that are in the classrooms, working with the teachers, or working with the students and teachers too. And so having our voice, and that is, I think, very, very powerful. And so that's kind of how with the Illinois early literacy coalition, them drafting the bill, they were really great about talking to different stakeholders too across the state, including teachers, teacher unions, and then also Teach Plus. And so that is kind of how that all, all came, came to be.

Amy Vujaklija: 19:24

Kim, what led you to be a leader in this work, a Senior Fellow,

Kim Tate: 19:30

well, so I was a policy fellow like Helen. I got a call from Teach Plus Illinois that said, you know, here's an opportunity we think you ought to consider it. And so Josh Kaufman, who's and Bill curtain, who's a also the policy manager, those two are pretty instrumental in sort of asking me to think about living and organize. Amazing and considering how, and that's what the Teach Plus Illinois organization is about, actually elevating teacher voice and putting teachers in leadership positions to all this work that we have to do, right? And so that was, that was how I came to senior policy to be a Senior Policy Fellow, how we landed on literacy was my my heart had been there. My heart had been there. And just when we think about working groups, it's always about who's in the room, and that's what determines the policy issues that the group, the organization, will work on for the year. And so again, just the stars aligned. And we had a core group of teachers who were like, We want to tackle literacy. This is we had instructional coaches. We had practitioners, teachers in the classroom who were all in here we are in different regions, right? Kellen, we were central Illinois, but we had Cook County, we had Urbana, we had the Bloomington, right? So we had all these different regions represented in our working group. But we're all seeing the same things, uh huh, with diverse populations, the same struggles. Yeah? So that was a moment where we came together and we said, let's do something. If we do something, we're going to help all of our kids. Yeah,

Joi Patterson: 21:31

outstanding. I want to give a shout out to Teach Plus and Bill curtain, where Amy and I were having these conversations, and we were looking at the Illinois State Board of Education. Website of who was involved, I reached out to bill but we have some history, a lot of history together work on the racism free schools and other things. And he said, these are the two. These are the two educators that you want to interview on this topic. So shout out to Bill curtain for that, Kim as a follow up. Tell us specifically, because we keep talking about the Illinois comprehensive literacy plan. Tell us briefly, what is it?

Kim Tate: 22:11

So this was an another stage. It started with the Illinois literacy Summit. Yes, and we were involved. We remember that, right? So we had a bunch of people in this space, right in Bloomington, and there was that sense right, that we need more, right? We need more and and so the Literacy Plan is actually so shout out also to the Illinois early literacy coalition, who actually said, this is our moment. We're not going to let go. We need to have something tangible. The teachers need something tangible. And so it starts with the legislation, really, and the literacy and Justice for All Act. And so the literacy component is one part of that, the Literacy Plan, I should say, the comprehensive literacy plan is a part of that. There's also other things contained in that legislation, but this is sort of the first step, which is like a framework or a guiding document that says this is what Illinois believes about best practices and literacy. And if you follow the guidance in this document, you will have four tier one instruction. You'll be better able to into it if the curriculum you have is going to be appropriate to help your learners have good outcomes, or if you need to supplement or do something different, right? We know all of our districts aren't in a financial position to have a big literacy adoption. So if you have something right now, how can you use that tool to accomplish quality tier one instruction, because that's where it starts. We cannot intervene our way out of a literacy problem. We can't and we have schools and school districts who are exhausting themselves trying to do that. That's not the work we need to do. We need to make sure that when we walk into that classroom space, every literacy classroom has has a quality educator that is well versed in structured literacy and how to deliver quality tier one instruction, core instruction, to those students. We also need that teacher, that educator, or educators, if you're in a co teaching situation, to be able to understand, hmm, okay, we've done the things we know how to do, what evidence tells us, what reaches research tells us, is best practice, and we're still not seeing the growth or the process. Progress we should expect now, what right? And so sometimes, even if we have a good program, a good tool, then when we move to that tier two, it's like, what do I do if I don't have an interventionist, if I don't have a cross cat, what the student falls behind, and the problem gets compounded. So this Literacy Plan, really, what I love is that it recognizes all of the stakeholders, and we all have a role to play in this. So sometimes we think about plans and it's just do this, but I love that it actually defines roles, and it says all of us, whether you work at the university level in a teacher prep program, whether you are a caregiver of a student who's in school, here's where you fit and helping to support students in Illinois and being excellent readers,

Amy Vujaklija: 26:01

Oh, wow. It does go deep, and it also hits all of those different levels. Helen, could you talk more about those main ingredients of the plan?

Kellyn Sirach: 26:15

Yeah. So, like Kim said, I like in the plan that it touches on, you know, in the classroom, literacy leadership, so our principal superintendents as instructional leaders. I think that is absolutely imperative. And then also the teacher prep programs too. And so starting out with the evidence, or, I'm sorry, the framework for effective evidence based literacy instruction. I love how they broke it down to the seven components of literacy. And so we're probably all familiar with the National Reading Panel and how they say the five, but they have seven. And so it's very, very comprehensive with oracy, phonological awareness, word recognition, fluency, vocabulary, comprehension and writing. And I love specifically in that chapter that it it breaks each one of them down, but then it has this nice, very accessible, easy to read chart that says, Okay, this is what evidence tells us in regard to those practices. And then this is what evidence it does, is, does not tell us. So this is not a practice that it's all aligned to evidence, and then in the middle, it has the standards that correlates with with each of those practices, which is really, really nice. And so within, again, within that educator chapter, or I don't even want to say it's specifically for educators, it should be for for those leading school districts as well, we all need to be informed about those practices. But then it also goes into, you know, the literacy leadership, of how, how should we be leading districts or schools in regard to literacy? I say all of them are my favorite chapters, honestly. And then the Educator Preparation one says, Okay, what does this mean for educator prep programs? We have, we have teachers that we're putting out to these schools that don't know how to teach reading me being a prime example, right? And no idea. And so it kind of gives them a call to action. Of, hey, like, Okay, you might have been doing this but, but let's take a look. Let's take a look a little bit deeper. And I have to give a shout out to Eastern Illinois University. They are completely revamping their entire education program so that it does align to evidence, so that their pre service teachers do know how to teach students how to read. So I love that. But again, I want to emphasize too that you know, while this plan is not a mandate, this plan is a call to action for every single person working within a school, because this is what we know that helps students to access text, to learn how to read, and it can literally change their entire trajectory of their life. While some, you know, some districts might say, Oh, well, you know, it's not a mandate. We don't have to do anything with it, I would, I would take a step back and say, Well, you know, this is guidance. This should be empowering for you. And you know your educators within your school is to really look at your practice and and refine your practices, because as teachers, we should always be learning and always be be looking for those best practices to support our students, and especially our students, like Kim was talking about that, that don't respond to that tier one instruction, too. It's a very compre comprehensive document, like in the title, because it hits all of the stakeholders, but again, provides that guidance, which this is the guidance I wish I had. In my early years of teaching, I had no idea what I was doing. I was at a district that didn't even have a curriculum. So I was just pulling stuff, you know, from wherever. And this, I think this might have been before Teachers Pay Teachers too. So, you know, I was just pulling stuff from old basil type. Spokes and you know, stuff like that. And I wish I would have had this guidance. This would have been a great starting point for me, especially, you know this, this teachers, most teachers that that have that starting point, and they look a little bit deeper elsewhere on the internet or talk to a friend or teacher friend or whoever. So I think that's kind of the key, key ingredients that that are included within the plan.

Kim Tate: 30:24

If I could just highlight something Kellan said, if there is one thing, because you look at this and you're thinking, oh my goodness, you know, almost 200 pages like, what am I doing with this? If I could just call out one thing Kellen mentioned, and that's for each one of these seven components of literacy, there is a table that tells you what practices are aligned with evidence and what instructional practices are not aligned with evidence. So if you have people who say, I've been using level readers all my life, this kid's an L, that's an n, we can go to the comprehension section of the Literacy Plan, and we can see that actually these level readers, and I do believe level readers call kids to lead level lives, and we don't want that. We can see that the instructional practice that's aligned with evidence is really to expose students to text across difficulties, across disciplines, across genres, right, and for the educator to then figure out what are the appropriate scaffolds I need to provide to give them access to this. Now, if I had had this when I started teaching, by literacy teaching would have looked a lot different, but I've done this before this plan was ever invented. I took a sixth grade novel in my fifth grade classroom, and I had students who are struggling reading at the first and second grade level, but we all were able to access the text in the epic fail of Arturo samura,

Joi Patterson: 32:01

now you know this is a game changer depending on how it's implemented. So Kellen, I want to go back to something that you said, and you gave a shout out to one of the universities. Unfortunately, it wasn't Governor State University, but I did, you did give a shout out, and you talked about educator preparation, and so that's what we do here. So how do you imagine this plan being incorporated in educator preparation? Because, Kim, you talked about having well prepared teachers, you know, having qualified teachers, this could be a game changer. So Kellen, how do you imagine that? And then Kellen, after that, Kim, I want you to talk about because both of you, you know, I think many of us. I know I did. I think it was you, Kelly and Kim, you mentioned that how you started your teaching career. I will. I had 40 non English speaking students, and I was given a textbook and they closed the door. That was my introduction to teaching. So first going back to you talking about educator preparation. How do you imagine this plan being incorporated? Well,

Kellyn Sirach: 33:05

I think first and foremost, I feel like those, those who are teaching these pre service teachers, need to first read the plan. But I think it would be absolutely wonderful if, even if they incorporated the plan within their classes and said, Okay, we're going to look at this evidence based practice and how we can use this in whatever setting that it might be. And I know you have only so many hours, and you know your teacher prep program, but I remember only having one class on teaching, teaching, reading, one class, one class, and it was one night a week. And I remember talking a lot about read alouds, which are great, fabulous, awesome. But that's not the only thing that we need to learn about, right? We need to learn about, really, how to teach these students how to decode the words on a page, how to support them if they do struggle with that. But then also in regard to comprehension, really talking about, like Kim was talking about exposing them and scaffolding in regard to complex texts and thinking about how to get them involved with these, these higher, higher order thinking skills. And again, I feel like if our teacher prep programs really do follow the evidence. And you know, while you know, some of our teachers or instructors might have been teaching for, you know, years, and, you know, in one side of the research, but, but be, be open to to, you know, learning new things, and especially hearing from practicing teachers right now. I mean, we, I know Kim and I, we've, we've talked to so many teachers that have been like, I had no idea, why didn't I learn this? And I don't, you know, why didn't we learn that? I have no idea, you know, and, and I do have empathy for them, you know, because I have never been a, you know, a pre service educator before, or teaching pre service educators before. But at the same time, this is literally, we're talking about children's lives. Yes, we're talking about also, I think if our teachers know how to teach reading, I really do think that's going to help with the teacher retention problem as well. Teachers going to be as frustrated because they know what to do. They know how to teach these kids how to read. They don't just slap a level on them and be like, Okay, I don't know what to do. I'm going to give them this book and we'll talk about some, maybe some comprehension strategies. They'll really know how to teach these students. So again, I would, I would consider, or I hope this plan is a call to action for these, these teacher prep programs, because, again, students lives depend on this. But also, I mean so many teachers, too, and their well being. And if we're thinking about, you know, the future of public education in Illinois and retaining our teachers, I think this would be a great place to start.

Amy Vujaklija: 35:51

You're tapping into a very important point when you're thinking about retention of educators. When kids can't read, they act out who wants to be called for being illiterate or not being able to answer that question that you should find right there on in the first paragraph of the text.

Joi Patterson: 36:13

And we were all middle grade teachers, so that's classic behavior when I don't understand something. It's deflection,

Amy Vujaklija: 36:21

uh huh. If I'm seeing that that that my teacher is going to help me understand the text that is in front of me, I will be less likely to act out. There's that key relationship for establishing that management in the classroom and retention, because that's what we are seeing, is classroom behavior can really cause burnout.

Joi Patterson: 36:47

So shout out to Doctor Amy, because she's on top of it, and she is responsible for anything that Illinois State Board of Education has adopted of making sure it gets embedded in the educator preparation program at a high level. So shout out for Doctor Amy for just being having a foresight and digging her heels into this already. But you know, it's really about how we implement it. You know, we respond so much to the urgency of the day in education, all of us have been there when the real urgency is student learning, right? And so only if we can implement this with fidelity will it be successful. Kim, how

Kim Tate: 37:31

do you envision districts even implementing the plan, as Kelly indicated before they have to read it, and in order to read it, we have to set aside time. School districts have to set aside time. And this is professional development. It's looking at this document and going section by section. So if I was looking at this, I would divide it, divide this plan into the stakeholder groups. Admin, you're over here, teachers, you're over here, convening parent groups. Hey, come into our space. We need you. You're over here. And everyone. Take apart these sections to identify what we're doing that's aligned with supporting best outcomes and developing proficient readers. And what are we doing that's like, okay, oh, I'm a teacher and my small group or my cohort, I'm looking Oh, I do silent reading in class. I should. Should I not be doing this? Okay, well, what does the plan say? Well, what's more effective and really interrogating that and then coming up with how you will implement that in your space, in your district, because maybe another district, like they got it going on, they know that this is not just having them sitting there with the books, and the books are upside down the kids, you know, I've been there, you know, and and so to have teachers come to the awareness of this practice isn't really effective for serving students. So what should I do then, right? So it's not like you're all wrong. Nope, that's all we're saying. We're saying now that we know better, how can we do better? Here are some ways, and we can't do everything right, but we're going to pick for our district the ways that are suggested in this plan that fit us and that will have the greatest impact for our student populations. That's how I would envision schools and school districts really looking at this plan.

Amy Vujaklija: 39:49

I want to ask for either of you to chime in here. We've talked a lot about what is in the plan, also what the plan is. Suggesting we do not do could you answer the question about what is not in the plan? Because you talked about a guide, you talk about guidance, you talk about it lays out best practices and strategies and evidence based and research we have skirted around what is not in the plan. So share Kellen, you're you're nodding. So

Kellyn Sirach: 40:30

one thing that is not in the plan and out there are a couple states that have actually like curriculum guides, like you can either use this curriculum, but you cannot use this curriculum that is not in the plan. And I think that is really, really smart move, simply because no curriculum is perfect, and I'm more interested in building teacher knowledge and teacher practice, rather than buying into a certain program or curriculum. So that is not in the plan. They are coming out is B is coming out with a curriculum evaluation tool specifically related to literacy. I think July 1 is the due date for that. Again, there's nothing saying you cannot use this curriculum. You must use this curriculum, because what it boils down to, and I'm sure we're all familiar, is local autonomy and doing what's best for the students within your district. So again, this is not say, you know, don't use this curriculum, use this one, but really focuses on the practices that teachers use. And so if you do look at, you know, the evidence based practices, and then what is not in line with evidence. If you're familiar with some specific curriculums, you can probably tell which ones don't have those evidence based practices in them. But again, it does not say, use this. Don't use this. But more of okay. Here are the practices that we know work for students.

Amy Vujaklija: 41:56

So this is a warning to big publishing companies who want to market boxed curriculum to our local school districts. Beware. We are focused on district autonomy and teacher voice, and they know what their own students need. So beware. We know the game, right?

Kim Tate: 42:22

Illinois is a state that really prides itself on local control and in our outreach as a working group with Teach, plus we have that affirmed across the board. And so, as Kelly said, this is really about building teacher knowledge, because families move, we we switch districts. We want teachers to have a core, a set of practices that stick with them, that they take with them no matter where they go. Curriculum is a tool, right? But if I have a core set of practices, instructional practices, and I understand what good tier one instruction looks like. I can use any tools to make that work happen.

Amy Vujaklija: 43:08

As we wrap up our conversation today, we really want to know what about your hope for the outcomes of this implementation of the Illinois comprehensive literacy plan.

Kellyn Sirach: 43:23

I have a couple different hopes, but my hope is that this plan empowers teachers to continually learn and to continually refine their practices, that you know we're never going to be done learning, and especially as more evidence and research comes out to be to be mindful of that we might have to change our thinking. And that's one thing that I had to learn early on, is that I thought, you know, in teacher prep, I learned it all. I was set for life. No, no, absolutely not. You know, we constantly have to be learning and so again, my hope is that this plan empowers them to continually learn more, to do what is best for students. I also hope that this, this plan, start to change within our teacher prep programs. At this again, is a call to action to them to prepare our teachers, to support our teachers, which are ultimately supporting our students. And then, of course, my ultimate dream goal is that this plan will will be the catalyst for for change in ensuring that all of our students in Illinois, regardless of where they're located, their zip code, who they are, my plan, my hope, is that they they all have the access to learn how to read, because they have teachers that have that knowledge to teach them how

Kim Tate: 44:38

well, I'm Just going to co sign to all of that. My hope is that we won't see these students in high school that don't know how to read, because we will have teachers who are empowered and who know how to deliver quality instruction or how to. Intervene if we have some students who have who need some extra support. I also hope that our teachers continue to be lifelong learners, and that we recover that joy, that that the joy of a read aloud, the joy of going to another place. You know, we haven't talked about critical literacy, right? That terms in this plant, looking at diverse text, critical consciousness, where I am in this world and and how other texts can help me to know more about myself and others. There's so much potential, untapped potential, that I hope we set up a system have teachers using practices that are going to bring back the love and the joy of reading and just learning. Here.

Joi Patterson: 45:56

I love it. I love it. You all are certainly the ultimate impactors of student learning, and it's really not about teaching, it's all about student learning. So thank you for bringing that to our attention and our audience attention you got. You are wonderful.

Kim Tate: 46:13

Thank you so much for having us.

Amy Vujaklija: 46:17

Thank you for listening to teaching and leading with Dr Amy and Dr Joi. Visit our website at G, O, v, s, t.edu/teaching, and leading podcast to see the show notes from this episode,

Joi Patterson: 46:34

we appreciate Governor State University's work behind the scenes to make publishing possible. Stay tuned for more episodes with Dr Amy and Dr Joi.