Paying Mentorship Forward with Ms. Angela Sebastian

SPEAKERS

Joi Patterson, Amy Vujaklija, Angela Sebastian

Angela Sebastian: 00:04

people can change their trajectory, if there's a path that they can see or that they can envision. That's why I do it. I believe in that. Welcome to our podcast, teaching and waiting with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joy. I am Dr. Amy Vujaklija Director of educator preparation. And I am Dr. Joi Patterson, Chief Diversity Officer. Our podcast addresses issues through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow educators. So join us on our journey to become better teachers and leaders. So let's get into it.

Amy Vujaklija: 00:51

Hello, Dr. Joi.

Joi Patterson: 00:52

Hello, Dr. Amy, how are you? I am doing well. And this is a conversation that is really exciting to me.

Amy Vujaklija: 01:03

Because I think that coaching and mentoring is the biggest part of education, retention of both students, faculty members, future teachers, hopefully stay in the classroom a lot longer with coaching and mentoring. And the person we're talking to today, it really has those credentials. Yeah, it resonates with me, because just thinking back to where I was to where I am, and it gives that message of hope. And that's what we're all here for. So it's not just about where we are in our beginnings, but what we aspire to be, and that path to getting there. And, to me, this is a story of triumph triumph, you know, from very small beginnings, to a point to where you can give back.

Joi Patterson: 02:04

So I love this about our guests,

Amy Vujaklija: 02:07

who have been the most powerful mentoring figures to you.

Joi Patterson: 02:13

You know, early on, I would say as a child, it was television figures. I don't know if I necessarily saw those figures in my everyday life, any particular person that I aspire to be like, there was I considered a role model, I would say I found my role models on television. And even though they were for 10. As children, you don't look at it as pretend you look at it as something that you can maybe aspire to be. So those things were important to me, looking at the television show the sitcom Julia, which was the first leading role of a black actress who was a nurse, you know, that inspired me to want to become a nurse. I love Dr. Wells, you know. So these are shows that were very, very meaningful to me. So it just goes to show that we can find inspiration, and a lot of different places.

Amy Vujaklija: 03:18

I agree. It's, I've been very much inspired by people who are 10 years further than the pathway in the career path that I have. And sometimes I don't know that that is my trajectory until I meet and talk to people who are in that space. And like, oh, I want to do that. Yeah, I'm gonna be that. How did you get there? Yep. So for me, it was always the next step. What's next? What's next? What's next? I don't know if I always had like, some individuals have like that 20 year vision 30 year vision, you know, where do you want to be? You know, for me, I think it was a smaller chance, maybe four or five years at a time. But it was always dreaming. It was always five years at a time five years at a time. So I never stopped dreaming. I never stopped believing. But it was always short. And it was always something I thought that was achievable in small chunks. Well, I'm really glad you said achievable because the person we're talking to today is all about achieving what might have been a dream that people would have doubted. So I'm excited to introduce Governor State University's Trustee Chair Angela Sebastian, who is the president of Sebastian strategies, a business advisory and leadership coaching firm, emphasizing execution. She has expertise in leadership strategy execution, finance, organizational design, governance and succession planning. Angie is the former CEO of Levin Feld Pearlstein LLC, the Chicago based law firm, where she worked for more than 20 years. When she retired from her position as CEO, Levin Feld Pearlstein honored her service by initiating a scholarship fund at Governor State University. But let's back up, Angie grew up in the south suburbs and earned a BS degree in accounting from GSU. As a non traditional student at the age of 30. She went on to become a CPA, earn an MBA, and recently became an associate certified coach. Through the international coaching Federation. Angie is a testament to the power of education to transform lives, as well as an exemplar of a commitment to lifelong learning. She is passionate about supporting GSU students who endeavored to change the course of their lives through education and is proud to serve the university that has changed hers. Angie is a member of the Illinois CPA society and international coaching Federation. And her coaching certification is now professional certified coach. And the scholarship in her honor is finish what you started. Wow. I'm so excited to talk to you today cheer Sebastian. Angie, if we may, please.

Angela Sebastian: 06:49

Yeah,

Joi Patterson: 06:49

it's a pleasure having you. Before you came on, we were kind of talking about humble beginnings and things that inspired us to catapult us to that next level. So you have an amazing story, Angie. And I think it will resonate with so many people for at different stages in their life. Because this is a journey for you. I want to first start up with you know, I grew up on the south side of Chicago. I grew up in Inglewood. And the good, bad and ugly many of that has stuck with me. And it's a lot of it has shaped who I am. And I know you grew up on the south side of the south suburbs of Chicago. Let's talk about your early beginnings. Tell us your story about growing up and kind of what what shaped you that's what Amy and I were talking about earlier, what are some of the things growing up that shaped you?

Angela Sebastian: 07:44

Well, first of all, thank you for inviting me to your program. I appreciate your highlighting some of the themes that hopefully I can bring some story to my personal story too. So I did grow up in the south suburbs, I was born in Chicago Heights. I grew up in the neighborhoods of Harvey and Markham. And I switched schools almost every year, while I was growing up. So I often had to adapt, you know, to new situations, and not always the most friendly places. What influenced me was just, you know, the neighborhoods, right, the kids hanging out, and I have very close cousins, there were a lot of us. And so they were kind of my support structure. But it was it was a little bit of a free for all, if you will, in the 70s you know, come home when the street lights are on that kind of thing. I will also say that a real prevalent influence for me was a lack of money, always. And so never having enough money to do anything. So you just kind of make do one influence. And I often get asked a lot Did you watch this show? Did you catch this show? I don't watch television. And the reason is, we are TV broke when I was young. And for years, we didn't have a TV and so we would go to the library or we would play games or we would do something else. And back then I thought you know how poor are we we don't even have a TV and now I'm like, What a gift that I don't have to suck away so much time watching shows. So it was an influence. I think though the neighborhoods and the community. The theme of money economic disadvantage was always prevalent and those were pretty big influences on me.

Amy Vujaklija: 09:50

Well, I want to ask about part of your bio says you were a non traditional student earning your college degree a little bit later. Uh, what are some things, some of the people who helped catapult you to go into college? What motivated you?

Angela Sebastian: 10:09

I think what motivated me was I wanted to get out, I didn't want to have my future be like my past, I didn't really have any mentors or role models to look up to i, other than people who cared deeply about me, and who believed in me, and we believed in the power of us, right. But I also wanted to make a change, I was very motivated to not be like that not live like that. And so I became a good observer, a very astute observer. And I think, changing school so many times at a young age, I picked up some pretty good observation skills. And I paid attention to, you know, people who had things that I wanted, or people who exemplified things I wanted to be like, and what they had in common is they all went to college, right? It was just natural for them. It wasn't, it wasn't weird, it wasn't novel, it was just what you do. And but nobody in my sphere did that. So I was motivated to change. And I've always been motivated to change.

Joi Patterson: 11:22

So I want to talk about are some of that motivation comes from before we get more into it, you know, talk and beyond your bio, you gave tribute. And you know, first I was going to say, in spite of things that you've gone through, but it wasn't really inspiring, because you really paid tribute to how being poor was not an obstacle for you, and how the fact like you didn't have television turned out to be a blessing. Because we're challenged with that. Now, so many kids are in front of video games and television, and they're not reading, you know, they're not thirsty for knowledge. And so that became a benefit for you. And, you know, so many times when I look back at my past, and I say, Oh, I was poor, and I didn't necessarily know I was poor at the time, you know, when I explain it to someone, oh, I had powdered milk. And sometimes, you know, and government cheese and, you know, I had sugar bread, if anybody knows what sugar bread is, is literally taking a piece of white bread, putting sugar on it, and then you know, shaking the excess off, and there's dessert. But those weren't really obstacles to you. And when I think about it, I mean, you're really an act, you are really an at risk student. And so many of our students here at Governors State University, were considered at risk students. And when you look at that, in the parallel of your bio, I want to talk about how do you how did you get what do you think you got from this at risk students who didn't see a lot of role models to go to college, and how you were able to transform?

Angela Sebastian: 13:04

Um well, first of all, I never eat government cheese anymore. And I never used to that I never had that. I never have dessert with you know, white bread and butter and sugar and anymore either, you know, that was my power came from wanting to change right and believing that I could and and also now on the other side of it that then of course, I probably felt like those were obstacles right? But now I recognize they're a superpower for me because I'm willing to take more risks than many leaders who I know and work with because I already know how to be poor I already know how to do that. I don't if I have to start over if I happen to lose this position this this job this gig this whatever so what I mean the worst that's going to happen I kind of have already been through the worst thing to happen I can do that and I don't have to clip coupons anymore but I can I know how to write i My at some point it shifted from now I have more time than I had money but in the early days I definitely I didn't have money for anything right I have more money now later. And also I don't I don't need as much that's that's another thing that I gained from that period in my life and developing like that. I just I don't I don't have this need to for access. It's like enough. This is enough and I want to try something new now. I don't want to have this or that or the other thing. So um, I would say the other thing because I've been so obsessed with money and lack there of I'm really good at managing money. Very good. I I mean, that's how I was very successful in my career, I made my law firm a lot of money. I know, I know, the financial discipline necessary to increase the profit margin, just like I know, the disciplines necessary to maintain, you know, a strong asset base in my own networks, I use that same discipline. So I think coming from a place of scarcity, and recognizing that, I know how to navigate that if I need to gate gives me a lot of strength as a professional and just as a rounded adult. Even when I travel, which is one of my passions. I don't travel like the next person, right? I, I take the trains and the subways wherever I go. And I don't stay in the posh hotels, I don't feel comfortable there anyway, first of all, but secondly, cost five times as much is the way I travel, a lot of people ask, how do you get to travel so much? Isn't it expensive? Yeah, the most expensive thing is the airfare right. But once you get around that you can navigate navigate it very differently. So I just, I just have this way of navigating that is a strength in the business world and in my professional life, and in my personal life now. And that navigation came from how I had to navigate from a very early age.

Amy Vujaklija: 16:25

I want to speak to students, a governor State University, we have over 40% of our students who are first generation college students. And that in itself, when we think about recruitment and retention, that can be such a challenge to Like, who do you talk to? When you have an issue with a course or scheduling fiasco, or whatever other types of resources you need on campus? If you don't have someone who's been through it, an older sibling and a parent? So what is your hope for Governor state university students who are walking that pathway?

Angela Sebastian: 17:20

Yeah, well, who do you talk? That's two different questions. Who do you talk to? And what is my hope? What do you talk to whoever you can? Who ever you can people you work with? People at the university, of course, there, there are people designated specifically to, to help guide students, but I know it's intimidating. But that's the thing, you kind of have to get through that intimidation factor across the board everywhere in the classroom, in the in the world, and just recognize, I am new at this, I don't know what I'm doing, I'm going to just ask a lot of questions until I figure it out. And somebody will be able to help me. And also, it's okay to make a few missteps and learn from them. So that's, that's how I did it, I just asked were, and paid attention wherever I needed to, and I refused to be ignored. So I just had a strength about my determination that, you know, it just carried me. So my hope for the students is that they will find a way to get the answers that they need and the support that they need. And also that the people they work with at the university, their professors, their administrators, their code students, many of whom are adults can share their experiences. So the students don't feel so alone. You're not the only one doing this, you can do this, it is hard, just kind of acknowledging Yes, it is hard. Yes, it's very hard. And you can do it. Right, there's a way to do it, that might be different than the way you set out. But that doesn't mean you have to stop. It's not working that way, it means you find another way. Keep your eye on the prize, you know, and find the support that you need. And so that's my hope for the students and my hope for the university is that we recognize that they're not always going to come. So we have to reach out. Right? They don't know sometimes to ask, they don't know who what to ask for or who to ask. And so even if we have the services, that's great for the people who know, but some people don't even know that those services are for them. And so the Reach Out is really, really critical. I think on behalf of the university.

Amy Vujaklija: 19:54

Yeah, whenever you said reach out that just really charges me because Is there are so many services, I was just in a meeting a few minutes ago that, wow, I didn't know about some of these services that we had in place about the reach out. And I think that's a really valuable point is, not only do students know that they exist, that faculty and staff know they, they exist, because if students are asking questions, and they're asking whoever they see these questions, and the answer is, I don't know. It can also be followed up with, I don't know, but I know someone who does, or I know where you can find that service. So I think that's a really powerful point is that reach out both on the university side and the student side. And if people know that services exist, they can get connected.

Angela Sebastian: 20:54

Right. And it's not uncommon, right, in any large organization or institution for this part, not knowing what this parts doing. But if everyone is very clear on what we're doing as a whole, we recognize that we're giving students an opportunity to change their lives, which is a very different vision than I'm educating someone, right, which is kind of in this lane. But if you're if the vision of the institution is to change lives, right, then it's more of a wider and what else besides educating individual, you know, what else needs to happen or need to what should I know about that's going to help change lives, according to The Big Vision, and I think the communication strategy of any organization or institution is key to kind of closing some of those gaps.

Joi Patterson: 21:48

Yeah, I think I think that's, you're right, both of you are right, and I'm seeing some areas in myself where, oh, here's something that can impact I can work on some of that. So I'm listening. And I'm seeing what does that mean for joy? And how can I have an impact on the university that makes that easier for us, because Amy and I were talking earlier about mental health, and which we have to pay attention to the fact that we have to pay attention to how people are feeling and their readiness to learn before they can learn. So all of those other things, right. And we were just talking about if someone told us, they were hungry, we wouldn't know what to do right away. And we could get them some some nourishment, you know, we could go into action. But if someone is describing how they feel to us, what do we do with that, and a lot of times, we just sit there, and we listen, and we move on, when there's actually something there to be done. So I think I get a picture in my mind that you are very tenacious student. And I may be wrong, but it sounds like you're very, very tenacious person and everything, including being a student. And you know, and many students don't necessarily know how to advocate for themselves, especially, you know, first generation students, you know, you don't go home and have these conversation with your parents, because sometimes that can be very awkward, and them not understanding, they think it's this new person that you're becoming. And there may not be that understanding, I know was that way for me. And, you know, I took longer in school than I needed to because I didn't ask enough questions. You know, I read the catalog, but didn't go to the advisors, things like that. So both you and I, we have a lot in common here. We're both alums from GSU, I got my graduate degree from GSU won't talk about how long without? How has GSU shaped your skills and your values? What is it that you love about GSU?

Angela Sebastian: 23:58

Well, I love a lot of things about GSU. And that's why I'm still involved. How has it shaped my values? I think it's my experience at GSU has opened my, my lens, two pathways that I hadn't previously considered. So my only pathway was fighting my only pathway was climbing my only pathway was this is going to happen, no matter what because I am not going back to where I came from. But being exposed to different people with different experiences. And I had my first travel abroad experience while I was a student undergraduate student at GSU. It was the beginning of kind of a lifelong journey in learning that I I find myself on even now right and hopefully always, hopefully always, now that I've retired from my position, I have more time and I'm just learning all this stuff that I never really picked up. And I feel like it's missing. I feel like I'm winding my way through this answer, but I'm not sure if I touched on what you actually asked.

Joi Patterson: 25:17

And I do think, Ford, you know, you mentioned your study abroad, and many of our students have that experience, I think when you have those experiences, they really change your life, if you really see things through a different lens. And being in a midsize university with small class sizes, is, I mean, you just get to meet so many people, you know more intimately, you're meeting your faculty, and they get to know you. I mean, it's a, it was a great experience for me, you know, because I can look back and I can tell you who my professors were, and some of my experiences and how they stick with me today. So I know it was very meaningful for me. So it's shaped a lot of my skills and my values. And obviously yours, because as you said, you're still here. And you're giving back, and which which I want to talk to you about. So maybe we can segue there and come back around because I do and I

Angela Sebastian: 26:20

Can I jump in on something that you said about first generation students and not being able to cook not being able to talk at home about it, I think it's not only not having someone to who's navigated this to kind of guide you or mentor you or empathize with you, if nothing else. It's that for many My experience was didn't understand it. Like why are you even going to college? you typed so fast, you could make a lot of money as a secretary right out of high school, which I did I typed, like, 95 words a minute, which back in the day, that was a lot, right? And it just didn't it didn't compute, it's like, I don't understand you're not? Why do you even then now you're gonna tell me it's hard just quit go out and make more money. Like, it's not only that, they don't have the experience to be able to guide you, they may not even necessarily support or understand the point of it. And it's expensive. And so it's really hard to reframe the cost as an investment in your future earning potential, which it is, there is a difference between a cost and an investment. And you don't have to be a CPA to know that difference, right. And so really navigating that I just, there's a lot of challenge around the dynamic of breaking out if you will. Now I know some first generation students, the family is behind it. 100%. And that's a different kind of pressure, right? It's like, you must do this. And you must, you must. Yeah, and yeah, and you have to do the best you can. And so if you're stumbling a little bit like, that's a lot of pressure, you can't go back and say, I'm not doing well, or I don't think I'm doing well, or I don't know, if I'm doing well, there's just so much home is a place to for me. And I think for many first generation students just kind of let go a little bit and be supported and hopefully be loved, right. But it's definitely not a place where you can share your experience that you're having in navigating this educational path.

Joi Patterson: 28:35

And you talked about not only were you first gen, but you were also a non traditional students. So think about students that are in that category that are married. So it's one thing to have that where your parents don't understand. It's another dynamic when you have that when your spouse doesn't understand, and you can't complain to your spouse, you know, I'm tired, or this is hard, or you know, I'm working, the first thing they want to say is well then quit school. Right? You know, why are you doing that?

Angela Sebastian: 29:09

Or a kid? They don't understand. Yeah.

Joi Patterson: 29:12

Yeah, it's not black. I'm glad to loop back around to that, Angie.

Amy Vujaklija: 29:17

It needs to be really isolating. Mm hmm.

Angela Sebastian: 29:21

Very lonely. It's very lonely. It's very lonely. And that's, that's part of it.

Joi Patterson: 29:28

Yeah, I went through that getting receiving my doctorate degree. Even though I was first gen and undergraduate. I didn't go through that as much. My mother always felt like you're going to college, you're going to college, even though she didn't understand all the dynamics of it. I didn't know any difference, other than to go to college. So I ended up at a community college because I didn't prepare financially to go to college and didn't know how to navigate. And so I did my first two years at a community college, but it wasn't until where I got my doctorate there. really well, there was a whole total disconnect. Of Why are you doing this? And why are you putting yourself through this? And why are you putting your family through this? Right? There's a lot of guilt. Yes, a lot of navigate.

Angela Sebastian: 30:14

Yeah.

Amy Vujaklija: 30:15

What makes Governor State University different from all other institutions? I mean, you both I was not an alarm that you both can speak to this. What is it about Governor State University? What's our what's our jewel?

Angela Sebastian: 30:36

That's such a good question. Could be a whole marketing campaign, right? What is our jewel to you, but so I have different experiences with different colleges. I worked at two colleges. Before I went into legal I worked at a big public and public college in Texas and a private college in Texas. I attended a private college for two years, I attended three different junior colleges before I wound up at GSU to complete my undergraduate degree, and since then, I've been at a completely online university for my MBA and I went to a prestigious institution, Georgetown University for my coaching program, how I got in there. I have no idea. Right, but I did. And so I think what distinguishes Governor state, in my experience, and also in my capacity now as a trustee, is that it meets people where they are, it's not, here's our program, you need to find your way and fit in our mold. And good luck. Right? Here's the map. Good luck. Governor state has always been a place where we just say, all right, tell us where you've been. And tell us where you want to go. And let's try to figure out a way to get there. And that's true for the first generation students. It's true. It used to be just an upper level program where you finish your school. That's why my scholarship is entitled to finish what you started, I still want to attract those students to Governor state. And those are the majority of the students we now serve, right. That's what I would offer and why I think it's so special. It's just, it meets people where they are. And the other thing I would say, because I've moved around so much, you know, moved around when I was younger, moved around as an adult. It is it does feel like home to me, it's always been there. It's one place that remains solid or steady, something that I can count on to gem part digital part to me, joy, what about you?

Joi Patterson: 32:45

Yeah, I would say the same thing. I mean, I just felt very comfortable here. When I was at Governor State University, I genuinely felt like people were trying to help me. And when you were saying that I was thinking of advising, I always describe advising as the best part of my job. I've never been an official advisor, right. But when you asked me what's the best part of any job that I've ever had, as an educator, I will always say advising. And that is because I get so I get more out of advising than the person that I'm talking to, when you can help them figure out that path, right? And there's that aha moment. And you know, if this doesn't work, let's create another path. You got to close this door, let's open another door. And so that's something that I always try to do and give back to Governor State University is to be a good adviser. Even if you don't ask for my advice. You're going to get I'm bad at that. You're going to get some advice. So think of talking about giving back. Okay, so you give back in a big way. Chair Sebastian, let's talk about why you give back. Why is it so important that you give back to Governor State University?

Angela Sebastian: 34:14

Well, and I would reframe it as paying it forward, right. I feel I don't feel like I'm giving anything back. I feel that I'm doing my part to create opportunities for future me right for future and deeds for future students who need to find a way to navigate their life differently. I do believe that education breaks the cycle of poverty. I think it is the one thing that does and where we're located. We are surrounded by poverty, it can be a beacon of hope. Getting back to the reach out. strategy again, right? Do people even know it exists? Do people even think it's for them? Are there pathways but that That's, that's why I do it because I believe in the power of education to transform lives and trajectories. And so I am the first to have a college degree. But my sister has a master's in nursing my, these are my younger siblings, my brother is a lawyer, my younger brother's a health care professional, like I was the first one in my family with a credit card, right? And so I became the advisor for these people, people can change their trajectory, if there's a path that they can see or that they can envision. That's why I do it. I believe in that. And then I also expect that when people do they help other people can change their trajectory, if there's a path that they can see or that they can envision. That's why I do it. I believe in that. And then I also expect that when people do they help others, you know, share, share your story, share your wisdom, your experience, your lessons, learned your failures, let people know when it was hard, right, at affords people chance to then be human themselves. Yeah.

Amy Vujaklija: 36:21

I may have two questions, not sure if your answer will be in will be different depending on how I asked it. You serve on the governor, State University Board of Trustees. So chair Sebastian, what is your hope for Governor State University? The My second question is, Angie, what is your hope for Governor State University? So are those two different questions are one in the same?

Angela Sebastian: 36:55

I think they'd be the same actually, I'm kind of the same person no matter where I am. Or what I'm doing. And my hope for Governor state is that it's the catalyst for the change that we need. In the south suburban communities. This whole region has been neglected economically, for decades, probably since I was born, when there was the what's called the white flight except for my family didn't sleep because we couldn't afford to, right. And so this whole corridor is neglected. And there are generations of people who don't see a pathway out. And yet, we are strategically located in an industrial and commuter segment. And there are communities with people who just, you know, maybe it's going to take a generation or two, for hope to kind of come back into the formula. But I believe in the resilience factor of people. And I think the governor state can be the catalyst for the change that could happen, that may sound overly optimistic and eager. And it's a big challenge. And the biggest challenge is the ones that need to be taken on. Right. So that's, that's what I would hope for the University. And I'm trying to do my one little piece of that, but that, that requires the force of an institution and the people in it to really embrace that vision. So that was a mine.

Amy Vujaklija: 38:36

Well, thank you so much. This, it's I mean, we could talk for so much longer about I know,

Joi Patterson: 38:43

we could talk coaching, and we could spend an entire conversation talking about Earth gym, and the challenges that come along with that, and how do you support yourself? How do you advocate for yourself? So that you can get through those experience and how, as employees of a university, how we can help our students?

Angela Sebastian: 39:08

Yeah, I could talk about it for ever also, right. But really, we can't just talk about it, we have to do stuff, we have to put our words to action, we have to start where we are. It's great to have goals and dreams and vision. And we need that. So we know where we're heading. And we just need to start walking. Right? And so, I'm sure you know, you both know that my philosophy and my motto is to lead where you are. It's a very action oriented statement, right? Let's do something. Take the first step. Let's see where we're heading. And figure out what can we do to you know, take one step toward there.

Joi Patterson: 39:51

And I'm glad you said that, you know, I have something on my to do list. You know, Amy and I talk about all the resources that we have in GSU And the people that are serving the students, those that are closest to the students may not even know what those resources are. So that's one part where you know, it's on my to do list of how can we lead where we are? How can we do better with what we have? How can we get that message out to students, so that they have it right in front of them? It's been good for me, and

Angela Sebastian: 40:23

I'm so glad. I'm so glad thank you both for the work that you're doing and leading where you are and bringing these stories out. So you never know what one kernel of one person's story will influence how someone is approaching their path. So thank you.

Amy Vujaklija: 40:44

And I'll take it to heart that Governor State University has a mission to be a public square. And I think this is just a desirable little colonel, our little teeny tiny step forward, hopefully.

Joi Patterson: 41:01

And we are so boring to have our chair of the board as an alarm. Someone is so passionate and supportive of Governor State University. Thank you so much. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Amy Vujaklija: 41:16

Thank you for listening to teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joy. Visit our website at govst.edu/teaching and leading podcast to see the show notes from this episode.

Joi Patterson: 41:33

We appreciate Governor State University's work behind the scenes to make publishing possible. Stay tuned for more episodes with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joy