Reboot: Finding Purpose and Healing through Enneagrams with Dr. Darrell Griffin

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

enneagram, amy, people, understand, work, helps, teachers, joi, joy, personality, email, learn, oakdale, students, sense, leading, educators, daughter, myers briggs, love

SPEAKERS

Joi Patterson, Amy Vujaklija, Darrell Griffin

Darrell Griffin: 00:03

Myers Briggs tells me where I am. The Enneagram tells me where I am but also where I need to be in life.

Amy Vujaklija: 00:11

This episode was originally released under the podcast titled teaching and learning, theory versus practice. This rebooted episode has been migrated to teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joy. I am Dr. Amy Vujaklija, Director of educator preparation.

Joi Patterson: 00:31

And I am Dr. Joi Patterson, Chief Diversity Officer. Our podcast addresses issues through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow up educators. So join us on our journey to become better teachers and leaders. So let's get into it.

Amy Vujaklija: 00:55

Hello, Dr. Joi.

Joi Patterson: 00:56

Hello, Dr. Amy, how are you? I'm doing really well. I'm curious about the profile I have submitted to the guests we're having today. Yes. What are you curious about? I mean, this is not our normal guest right? This guest can really give us a lot of insight about ourselves and make a healthier choice. And Amy

Amy Vujaklija: 01:23

Absolutely. He has provided professional development for a number of organizations and districts and it's all about wellness, and about well being. So let me introduce the Reverend Dr. Darrell Griffin, who is a senior pastor, spiritual director, published author, certified ministry coach and Enneagram trainer, who is committed to educating, empowering and transforming the lives of God's people. Since January 2000, Dr. Griffin has served as the senior pastor of the Oakdale Covenant Church of Chicago, Illinois, under Dr. Griffin's visionary leadership, Oakdale continues to be recognized as a Haven of Hope and spiritual transformation in the community. His commitment to holistic ministry has manifested itself through the tremendous growth of Oakdale, the expansion of Oakdale Christian Academy and childcare center and the establishment of the Oakdale Community Development Corporation. He has provided professional development to a number of organizations, as we said, and I'm looking for some development myself. Welcome to our podcast. Dr. Griffin.

Darrell Griffin: 02:54

Welcome. Can you hear me?

Joi Patterson: 02:56

Yes, we can hear you loud and clear. Glad to have you with us. I must say you're not our normal guests. I mean, we have a wide range of guests, educators, authors, students, parents, really wide, broad how we talk about education. I think this is the first time we've had a pastor. So thank you for being here. And you are, I mean, you are an educator, right. So we're going to get into it. And you're going to educate us on a lot today. So I want to get started by I want to hear more about you. Tell us about yourself. Tell us about your book, building a better you because Amy and I want to build a better joy and Amy pacifically using the INIA Graham and correct me if I say it wrong, finding our purpose, healing and success in relationships. I mean, we can use all of that. So spend as much time as you need to spend with us today. But tell us more about yourself in this journey that you're on now.

Darrell Griffin: 03:59

All right, well, I pastor Oakdale Covenant Church I've been there for the last almost 23 years as the pastor. I served in Brooklyn, New York as a pastor for three years. And then I served on staff at Abyssinian in Harlem under Dr. Butts for seven years. I was born in Wisconsin, in Kenosha, went to Kenosha public schools, went to Morehouse in Atlanta, the School of Dr. King. So I graduated from there. And then I went to Harvard for my graduate work. spent three years at Harvard and then I did my doctoral work at North Park University and have two sons. So they went when my oldest son is getting ready to graduate from Morehouse and applying to law school. And my youngest is applying to high school, I mean to college, so he graduates this year

Joi Patterson: 04:55

so you are truly truly blessed. Yes.

Darrell Griffin: 04:59

So, yes. And I started just a little bit about me and the Enneagram. I started learning about the Enneagram, in 2007. And I was just blown away at how it kind of nailed me. And really, I've always studied Myers Briggs and leading from your strength. So when I got to the Enneagram, and it really and truly nailed me, I thought we need to use this at our church. And we also run a school, a Christian Academy. And so I thought this could be very helpful in the church, and could be very helpful in our school as well. So

Amy Vujaklija: 05:41

you just said, Myers Briggs. And so now our listeners are curious, explain what the Enneagram is, and how does it compare to Myers Briggs?

Darrell Griffin: 05:54

So for example, you know, Myers Briggs, I'm actually an E es F p, which means I'm an extrovert. I'm a serving, I have feeling and perceiving. So that's sort of me as it relates to Myers Briggs. The Enneagram has nine personality types. So it's a little bit different. And so one is actually we perceive as a good person, that is the oldest child or the one that takes leadership in the family. The Perfectionists there's usually they're usually the ones that have all the awards, the plaques and the achievements. And then twos are loving people where they put other people's needs before their needs. They've never met a stranger easily connect with people. threes are efficient people where they operate and systems. So they are your they're actually allergic to incompetent and inefficient people. They break out into hives around those people. And they're the ones that will create a process that can be imaged conscience. They're the ones who make great coaches because they know how to create systems to bring the best out of people. fours are original people were there, your artists, your creatives. fives are wise people, your introvert, your intellects. sixes are loyal people. They're your law and order, black or white, never to color gray military kind of like sevens are joyful people. They're your big picture. People love to travel risk takers, adventurers. eights are powerful people. They're your captains of industry, your activist people who have strong personalities. And then nines are peaceful people. Were there your reconciler is an ecumenical people. And so you notice I've just name all nine of them. And sometimes we can flow within some of them. But we're going to have some level of a domination, and maybe one or two of those categories, if that makes sense. Yes.

Joi Patterson: 08:04

And I know later on, you're going to tell us about ourselves a task. And so but before we get to that, let's go back to Myers Briggs. And I've taken some some other similar ones. And I've taken it I see it on paper, and I say yes, okay, I can see that. That's me, it fits my MO it fits my personality. And I can see that. But then beyond that, I don't really do anything else with it. You know, it's on paper, I don't do much with it at all, it was a fun activity, but talk about when we learn more about ourselves, right? How do we use this knowledge to find purpose and be more successful in our respective lives? You know, what's the whole point of doing this? Yeah,

Darrell Griffin: 08:54

so great question. What, again, the Enneagram. The Myers Briggs tells me where I am, the Enneagram tells me where I am, but also where I need to be in life. So the whole goal of the Enneagram is to help you to create balance. And part of this the assessment tool of the Enneagram is the more you know about yourself, the better you can be in relationship with other people. And I argue that the people who really give you the most problems in your life are people who don't know their purpose. They don't know their purpose. Think about it, they don't know their business. So therefore they're always in your business. And so that's why it's very difficult. And what I learned is, is that purpose is offensive. So once I know what I'm called to do, I can no longer be collected by other people. And sometimes the fact that I know what I'm supposed to do, I know what I'm called to do. I know what I'm here for can be offensive to other people, because they have agendas for my life. And so now I know this is what I'm Call to do so that's why I find that the Enneagram helps you to get centered. It helps you to find your purpose, because you're understanding yourself, Why am I here? When we do in my, in my book on the Enneagram, I ask people to do a a mission statement for their lives. You know, mission statements, businesses have mission statements. Gov state has mission statements, your your podcast has mission, a mission statement, and it helps keep us focused. And we need to be focused. Other than that, we'll wander in the street and get hit by distraction. So we need to have some level of focus. And so a personal mission statement is important to get us focused in light. It's a flight plane. So when I'm hooking up with someone, if I'm going to California and they're going to New York, we instantly know that we're not going in the same direction. So that's why it's great to have it and then it helps you to it helps you to start getting a purpose. It helps you to find healing, because now I don't take it personal. I thought that when Dr. Amy is yelling at me, I'm taking it personal, and she may yell at everyone,

Joi Patterson: 11:12

right. She's a yeller.

Darrell Griffin: 11:15

She's a yeller, she has an equal opportunity, opportunity.

Joi Patterson: 11:18

yeller all the time. You're a hater, Amy.

Darrell Griffin: 11:23

It's so you know, it's like, Why am I being taking it personal, when that's not something that, you know, she's even that Amy's not even thinking about that Dr. Joy is not even thinking about that. And once we I understand that, then I can move on from that and not take it personal. And I can start to heal from some of the things that have been said to me. So

Joi Patterson: 11:46

I can see exactly why number one in church, I go to church, and I'm a PK kid, you know, I'm a PK. And I can see what all the different organizations why this is important, because we can get off track, right. And we should be there only for one thing. And it's lots of ways to be off track. So I could see using this is for harmony. And to stick to our mission in church, I can also see it on a teacher's lounge. Remember why you remember why you do what you do. Because there's a lot of things that go on in the teachers lounge, this should not go on the teachers in the teachers lab, there was a lot of conversations that shouldn't take place. Because we get off track right to what our true mission is. So this is really good stuff. I see a flyer, I think some kind of thing going on my wall right now, just to remind me,

Darrell Griffin: 12:36

yes, stay focused, I mean, and the other thing I want people to see is, is that understanding yourself is the hardest thing you'll ever do. It is the hardest thing you will ever do is to understand yourself. And that's because everyone else knows you. That your family, my family knows me, I know them. But guess what, I don't always know myself. You know, I, when I'm in when I'm in the midst of an organization, I can tell you, all the problems, all the joy, all of that in the organization. The only thing is, is I can't tell you what I contribute to the team. Sometimes it's my attitude, it's my issues. And I don't even know that that's permeating. I don't even know that my strong personality is offended people. I don't know that my being quiet is offending people. I don't even know that. And so I need tools to help me bring some level of balance to to, to the organization to the team I'm on. But also, most importantly, that I would understand more about myself so that I can fully show up and contribute to to the team and contribute to the organization. Is that making sense? Well,

Amy Vujaklija: 13:53

yes. But that leads to a question I have, what does the Enneagram mean for the work that you do? Okay,

Darrell Griffin: 14:02

so the work that I do as a pastor, it helps me explain me to other people. And it helps me to understand my staff and also understand the leaders. And as a case of the school, it helps me understand helps the teachers understand themselves and me understand the teachers, and the administrators and all of that. So it gives us it gives us a common language to be able to understand each other. And what happens is, is it's caused conflict to drop by 90% Because I'm not taking it personally anymore. We're not taking you should see us now we start to operate based upon if someone has a strong personality, we know they have some a tendency in there, and we're not taking it personal before it was she looked at me and you should have heard what she said to me and what he said to me. Oh I was so bended Well, now you realize that that's not necessarily to be taken personal. Is that making sense? Yeah. Or, or, or someone is a perfectionist? Why is everything have to be perfect? Well, they're a one. They're gonna have everything perfect. So what we've got to do is help that one. Understand that not everybody wants it perfect. Some people just want it done. We want to know, why is it that you're so helpful. And every time you want something done, you just ask this person because they were too. They always put other people's needs before their needs. And we've got to learn to ask to help them to say, you've got to have some boundaries. You can't help everyone here. You've got to stay focused. Yes, the people down down the hall need help. But we need you to stay on task here. And now it explains it rather than saying, Well, I was just trying to help. You're such a mean organization. You all don't want to help anyone here. No, we want to help people, but we need you to stay on task. And now I want to and I'm literally talking to my twos who are like that they understand their social butterflies, they want to come and knock on your door. They want to know oh my god, Dr. Joy, how was your weekend? And you're like, Okay, well, that's great. But you don't need to do it three times that day. It's okay. If people don't understand that the Enneagram and their numbers, they'll think that you're being rude because you've closed your door. And you don't want to answer and you don't want 99 icebreakers for every event. Let's get to the point.

Joi Patterson: 16:40

You know, I went to a discussion last week, the courage to teach. And one of the speakers talk about teacher educators, you need to get rid of your classroom management courses. You don't need to manage students, you need to build relationships with students, you need to get to know who they are, I think this is an excellent way to get to know your students. I can't wait to share this book when I'm finished with it with my mother, because you were talking about her a few minutes ago, you didn't know it, but and she will agree. If you look in the dictionary under perfect, you would see Shirley and she wholeheartedly accepts that. So I can't wait to share this with her. But I think the things that still get under my skin with my mother, you know, no matter how much I love her, it's because I don't define that this is who she is. So every time it happens, it bothers me. Instead of me accepting that this is her profile, this is who she is. And then I have to learn how does my profile then work with her profile? Right? So can you share some examples of how using in our grams has helped people? How have you used it to help people?

Darrell Griffin: 17:58

So for so for example, I had a parent come up to me after a session and say, you solve the problem between my daughter and I, in two hours, that we've been in therapy for two years. And I was like, What do you talk Are you serious? So then I discovered that this person is a one, which means they're a perfectionist. They are also a three, which means they're very processed and organized. And they're an eight, which means they have a very strong personality. That's the mother. The daughter is a two which means very loving, loves, everybody sees the good in everyone. She's also a four, which means she's creative. She loves to sing and dance. And she's very artistic. And she's a seven, which means she's a risk taker, she's adventurous, and all of that. So in all actuality, the daughter is a flower child. Okay? The, the daughter is the daughter is never going to color in her lungs. She's never going to be fully organized. The mother was wanting her daughter to be like her. So she was thinking that because the daughter wasn't organizing her life the way she thought it that her daughter was somehow trying to offend her trying to be a rebel against her. And really her daughter was just being herself. And what her mother discovered is is that wow, I have been spending so much time making my daughter into me instead of allowing her to be herself. That's where the clash comes in. Now, here's the thing, flash forward. Five years later, I run into them at Target. She remembers me I don't remember her. And I said, oh well how's your daughter doing? She said our relationship is great and nice. said, what was the turning point and everything she said, when I realized that I, my daughter is never going to be me. And I had to let her be herself. But I did a lot of damage, making my daughter into me, making her perfect making her this. And she said, and now I'm trying to help her really understand herself, so that she can authentically be what she needs to be. That's a clear example of that. So then that's when I realized when we're dealing with with teachers, is helping teachers understand that, that your students are coming there with these nine arrays of personality, some of the kids are going to come, and they're going to have everything nice and neat. Some are not in and of course, this we we learn as teachers, you learn that every child learns differently and all that. But what we do is we bring this implicit bias to the table that, okay, here's how I process things. This is how they should process things. And in some instances, when you're the teacher, you get to call the shots. But here's a way of being able to say to people, I'm a one, I'm a three, I'm an eight. Here's how I see things in this classroom, so that you might pass it. All right, so now the students adjust to that, if that makes sense.

Amy Vujaklija: 21:30

All right. I absolutely think that we're at a space right now where we need something different some other way to approach the classroom to approach our profession. I mean, we are facing incredible levels of stress, anxiety and overwhelm in all professions. And in our context, with Dr. Joy and me both being in teacher education. We're seeing this play out as burnout with educators. So I want to ask, How does knowing your Enneagram? And more specifically, your purpose? How might that help alleviate this burnout? Is it possible?

Darrell Griffin: 22:15

Well, in some instances, it is because here's the thing, I realized when I was understanding the Enneagram that I can, I'm a three and a seven. So that means I'm also a risk taker. So I can do multiple things. But what I discovered with the NEA, I was getting burned out. And I was discovering with the Enneagram that listen, I can do anything, but I can't do everything. So I realized that wait a minute, I'm trying to do 50 things and make it look like I'm doing it right. And I'm not, and I'm getting burned out. And the old saying is what keeps the fire burning is space between the logs. So I knew that I needed some space between the logs. I can't do all of this stuff. And I had to be comfortable with that. But at once I understood that my personality has the proclivity to pick up a lot of different rocks. I have this proclivity to do that, I'll pick up a rock. Because that's what I do. Oh my God, let me help this person. And then I get mad that I've got 39 rocks in my pocket. And I'm like, Okay, well, first of all, now I know, I've got to have boundaries. Now I know, I have to learn to say no, all of that helps me to not be burned down. I learned to take take time off. I learned to take retreats, I learned to care for myself, where remember, we weren't taught to care for ourselves. When you're a teacher, you're not taught to care for yourself, you're taught to care for the students, you're taught to, you know, education by any means necessary. You know, you're taught to come early and stay late. You're taught all that. And so all the boundaries are gone. So so students are calling you at nine o'clock at night to tell you what was what was the next assignment for the next day without reading anything. And so when we start to say we have boundaries, you can call me between seven o'clock and 715 in the morning, I will be in my office or nine to 915 but I don't I don't answer emails after five o'clock, unless it's a emergency emergency emergency. So by helping teachers set up boundaries, but that's my personality. I learned from my personality that I don't always have that skill. Now guess what? Dr. Joy may have that skill she may know to say, this is what we're going to do and she can do that. But

Joi Patterson: 24:55

unfortunately I don't have that feel

Darrell Griffin: 24:59

that she might be I've

Joi Patterson: 25:01

that would be a wish.

Darrell Griffin: 25:02

Those are the people who have that. But I'm just saying the Enneagram gives you the tools that you can start to look at yourself, and begin to make those adjustments so that you don't get burned out.

Joi Patterson: 25:16

So everything that you're saying is true. And I'm in the background, laughing because before we came on, we were talking about our 12 hour days. And that's what Amy and I like to do. We like to pick up a lot of rocks, we like to extend ourselves way beyond what the description of our jobs entail. And then you get, some people become dependent on it, right. And now you have to respond to everyone. And I definitely can see that as a pastor. And this the same way as with educators that you keep extending, and they expect more, they expect more. And I love that analogy that you use about how do you keep the fire burning, there needs to be space between logs. And when we give our times to be reflective practitioners, right? When we give our selves time to even think about ourselves, do you even think about what you like what you want it, it makes a healthier path? So I am really interested in what you learned about us. I think I had some that were like the zeros, which is yes.

Darrell Griffin: 26:21

So who, Gary, who wants to go first?

Amy Vujaklija: 26:27

I want to hear Joi's first.

Darrell Griffin: 26:30

All right. So Dr. Joi, your highest numbers are a one and an eight. So that means you are obviously either the oldest child, or the baby or the one that takes leadership in the family. So they rely upon you. You are a natural born leader. So you could be in a room of 1000 people. And for some reason, you will get called on to do something. And you don't know why you always get called on to do something in it many of the things that you're doing. And same way with Dr. Amy many of things that you both are doing. You've never even imagined doing it just it just it's like it's like it's like it just stumbled onto you. It's like, you don't know how you did it. You didn't pursue it. It just happened. You just happen to mention it. And I said, Oh, well, let's do this. And let's do that. And next thing you know, you're leading the podcast, you just and that happens to you all the time. And you also would like for people to have take their share of responsibility so that you don't end up with all the work. So you remind people that like if you caring for your mother, you remind people that she's your mother, too. So if we all work together, we can get through whatever. You are also the darling of the family. So you get the awards, the plaques, and all that. And that's sometimes can spark jealousy, because you do the right things. And you sometimes can be a long ranger in that. Because you have things that you say, well, if people can't do it, right, let me do. And so you'll dive in, and you'll do it. I can

Joi Patterson: 28:23

preach pastor preach. You're telling the truth,

Darrell Griffin: 28:29

you're also an eight, which means you have a strong personality. And the interesting thing about your personality is that you will never start a fight but you'll finish one. So no, you particularly when people mistake in your niceness for weakness. And see Dr. Joy, you're always telling people, we don't have to talk like this. We don't have to go there. You know, we don't have to be just but once they crossed that line, then Dr. Joy is not responsible for what comes out of her mouth. Because you have taken Dr. Joy there.

Joi Patterson: 29:09

Okay, so I am a middle child. But I take on all the leadership role of my siblings, my older sister, she's no longer with us. And so I take on all the leadership roles. My mother depends on me for everything. I plan every thing. So I am the go to person. So you really nailed me and on Friday, I recently changed positions. My new position is Chief Diversity Officer for Governor State University. So I'm honored to be in this position. But we were having a little bonfire Yosh party for me on Friday. And I acknowledge you know, the faculty that gave me the worst time, the absolute worst time of how I just worked on that, because she became my BFF Hmm. Because in terms of that leadership thing I tell my grandson, you don't work, you don't eat, and I'm serious about that. You don't work, you don't eat. And light hands, you know, you get to that many hands make light work. So those are my two things. So even though I do leadership, like you have to be accountable, you have to collaborate, right? And we have to collaborate, we have to get the work done. And if you don't like me, you eventually will, I will wear I will wear on you eventually.

Darrell Griffin: 30:38

Dr. Joy, you have never met a stranger. So you can easily connect with people, you are a process person. So you kind of think things through, you are allergic to incompetent and inefficient people, they do make you break out into hives. You do like your environment, harmonious and peaceful, you cannot work in drama, whatever is presented to you needs to look good, not only not only be good, but look good as well. You also as much as you love to connect with people, you must have a moment where you are alone to process your feelings and thoughts. So you have a cave in your house, where both you and Dr. Amy have a cave that you go in, and you decompress. And when you when you both come home, you actually will grunt as your greeting to whomever is at home, you grunt. And then you go into your cave, and you decompress. And once you finish decompressing, then you're ready to talk and engage. If people follow you into the cave, they will be eaten. So because you need that minute. And sometimes when you come in even for the at the office, you'll come in and you need your door close so that you could have a minute to yourself before everything gets started. You can be very loyal Dr. Joy, loyal to a fault. So there are people that you really need to let go of. But for some reason, they have been able to reach people who are really close to you, they've been able to maintain this relationship, because you kind of feel sorry, you're like, Oh, my God, I really need to be there for them. I really, even though they frustrate the hell out of you, you still continue to be in relationship with them. And you don't know how to get out of that relationship. And sometimes you are, you could be committed to uncommitted people, they're not committed to their own development, you know, and you're there trying to help people. And sometimes you just gonna have to say, Look, I can't be committed to uncommitted people. Now, here's the last thing your your for is a zero, which means that your creativity, Dr. Joy, that's telling me that something's going on in your life right now that you're not in touch with your creativity. You are so busy taking care of everyone else, and everyone else's needs, that you're not taking care of yourself. So you're, you're you're you're getting your creativity from your reserve. So you're actually pulling out stuff that's in the reserve. It's stuff you don't used to oh my god, you know what, this is simple. I'll pull this together. Oh, I've seen that before. I'll pull that together do this. And, and so it's nothing. It's not fresh. It's recycle things that you've made it look fresh. And what you have to do is take an art class, a dance class, a writing class, something to help you get back in touch with your creativity. Does that make sense?

Joi Patterson: 34:00

Oh, yeah, it makes sense. It makes it makes a lot of sense. It also explains why I have to come in and take a shower before I can kiss my husband.

Darrell Griffin: 34:11

You do? Yep. Yep. And you

Joi Patterson: 34:13

Shower is my happy place. And I can watch the day away and it bothers him that I walked past him. That's right. That's and I have to disrobe and take a shower. And that's where I can come back and kiss him.

Darrell Griffin: 34:29

That's right. That's the grunt remember you, you come in and you grunt basically, and go in. And so again, now here's the thing, people your husband would be offended if he didn't know you. But now with the Enneagram you're able to say this is how I'm wired. Not that there's something wrong, but this is just how I'm wired. I have to have this you know, and in some instances, people when you are when you have that five in Do people mistake in you as being standoffish or arrogant when you're not, sometimes when you shut down and being quiet is because you're, you're uncomfortable in the environment, you don't know the people. So you can be talkative around people that you know. But when you go in environments where you don't always know the people, and you don't always know where you are, you tend to assess it. And then you engage in Is that making sense? Where some people just walk in and start greeting people, you walk in, and you kind of look around and observe what's going on. And you look for familiar faces. If you don't see any, you wait until you do. And then you slowly approach people. But if you know everybody, then you will greet people and hug people and all of that. And they're like, Oh, I got to join. So glad you're here and all that. So you love all that. But when you but people will perceive you as being standoffish because you're not very talkative when you first meet someone, if that makes sense, makes total sense. All right. Now let me jump to Dr. Amy. Oh, okay, me You are the your highest number is a six, you are a very, very loyal person. I mean, when I tell you, you are a friend that sticks by people, I mean, real boy, but you also a very cautious person. And you are a calculated risk taker. So you have to think things through. And sometimes you can overthink it, you can overanalyze it, and you can create because you can overanalyze, you become paralysis of analysis kind of thing. And you because you searching, you're trying to get understand it. And part of what you like to do is kind of you need rules and order in order to perform. So you're like, okay, and both of you have a five tendency to you, but both of you would prefer, it's easy to reach you, it's easier for you to communicate through texting and email than to pick up the phone. Because, because it's easy for that, because, you know, that the Amy is, can be an introvert at times, she, you know, she can she's, she can really live in her head. And she can live in her books, and in her knowledge and all of that. And so, the pandemic really didn't bother her. She loved it, she loved being at home, and she loved reading and studying and, and the quiet time and, and all of that. And she did all of the things that the people told she wiped down the Amazon stuff, she wiped down her groceries, she, she did that, because she's can be a cautious person. But a very low up, you also may I think that to me, you're the oldest child or the one that takes leadership and the family of some sort. So you are another one high achiever, a perfectionist, very reliable, you know, very hardworking, and you also another one that can be a Long Ranger. So when it's not done, right, and Dr. Amy knows how to jump into gear and get it done, right. And both of you are so compatible. It's amazing that I don't usually see people, you all have a similar personality. So that's pretty much why you kind of kind of get along together. Because both of you can be leaders, both of you need time alone to process your feelings and thoughts. Both of you can be very loyal. The only thing is, is Dr. Amy is a little peaceful, she does not like a lot of confrontation, she really doesn't like that, where Dr. Joi doesn't, she doesn't like confrontation, but she doesn't she don't run from and so it takes a lot for Dr. Amy to really confront it. So because in a lot of times people have mistaken your niceness for weakness. And that is not the case. You are a very, very strong person, very capable person and very capable of defending yourself. But you like to defend yourself with words. So you like if if if somebody comes at you, you like to write a long letter or email to let them know just how you feel, and all of that. And, and that's helping you get it off your chest. So and then both of you because you are professors and all of that. One of the things that you know you're dealing with the five like both of you, is you give out great instructions. So because you think through things and So what really irks you is when students or faculty come up to you, and they say Dr. Amy, Dr. Joi, what about such and such and such and such? And you said, Did you read the email. And so what you would do is write them back. And this is how you know you've pissed off a five is you're right stuff like per the email that I sent on October the 12th. In line, in the, in the fourth paragraph of the email, I outlined all of the information that was needed for this assignment, what I would like for you to do is the next time, please read the email carefully. And if you have some additional questions, let me know after you have thoroughly read the email, Sincerely yours, Dr. Joi and Dr. Amy. That's how you, that's when you know, it stops

Joi Patterson: 40:56

our listeners to know that Dr. Amy and I are on fire. Background

Amy Vujaklija: 41:04

we're howling in the background.

Darrell Griffin: 41:09

Telling the truth.

Amy Vujaklija: 41:11

And you can tell when you haven't quite ticked us off is if we repeat what we need to say in the email and this nice long very, now we're going to put bullets and make it very, a whole lot clearer. That's right. But then, if it's like, really, they didn't get it the second time, okay, per the email that we sent. That's

Darrell Griffin: 41:35

right, you're gonna do it? And if they're gonna know it, and then the other thing for you, Dr. Amy, is you are very creative. So what that is, I don't know what you saying, Do you dance you write you at? Yeah, so it comes off. In fact, you're pretty, pretty bad a balanced leader. So you don't get a lot of lot of things don't really stress you out as much because Dr. Amy knows how to really disengage. So she knows how to kind of go into her world to read or to sing or to whatever, you know how to do that. And that has become an escape for you, to help you with a lot of your stress. Is that because too many people too much, or too many large events and all that can be draining to you. You know, so you go to events, because you have to not because you want to. So, you know, you would prefer you would go if you know, but it's like, you know what, you have no problem and being by yourself and enjoying yourself.

Amy Vujaklija: 42:53

I will be at a large party and have a conversation with one person the entire night. It's it's, it has happened. And if I have obligated to go somewhere, I will do it. But I am just as likely to send my regrets. Like I don't like to be in different spaces that I don't know people.

Darrell Griffin: 43:18

That's right. That's right. And the other thing that both of you have this gift is the gift of discernment. So you both can feel something is about to happen. You can feel it before it happens. And you don't know where that comes from, but you just feel it. And a lot of times you can you can sense someone, you could just feel it. You say something's not right. I don't know what it is. But something is not right. You can even get that intuition to go home. And you're like, Okay, I don't know why I need to go home. But every time you don't you ignore it. You always regret it. And because you're fives you sometimes can over analyze and say, Wow, that seems like a good person. I mean, you know, we, you know, we do have similar, whatever, but every warning sign is coming to you, and you're ignoring it. And then when something happens, you say, You know what something told me to stay away from that person not to go into partnership with them. And I didn't listen. And you know, you kind of regret that but you have that great discernment. I say, lean into that, because that has literally saved you a lot of stress and anxiety. So see that to me when you sit there and you say, when you're looking at that invitation and these and you're saying you know what? Not this one. And when you go you will turn around and you say you know what? Something told me not to do You know, it's just like, ah, oh, I could have I could have skipped this one. And you knew that you knew that. And then sometimes you'll get an invitation. And something will say to you, Amy, you need to be at this. And then you'll say, You know what? Yes. And then you'll get there. And you say, I am so glad that I came. All

Joi Patterson: 45:25

right, yeah.

Darrell Griffin: 45:28

I could, I could go on and on. Really,

Joi Patterson: 45:30

you really nailed it. And a lot of things we've had to figure out about ourselves, and how we best work together. And there has been a lot of give and take for us to work harmonious together. So you, you really, really nailed it. A lot of it was funny, because you, you saw that truth in us, you know, and it was funny to hear it. But also was very emotional, to hear those things, too. And I was going to ask you questions about, you know, Dr. Amy was talking about teachers and administrators facing burnout? And how does this method of using the Enneagram helped to build a better, healthier teacher and even a student that has anxiety? But we get it? You explained it very, very, very well. So I do want you to spend a few minutes because there's, I mean, just everything that you said, knowing yourself, how you interact with others, and beyond knowing yourself, knowing that that other person has the same thing going on, you know, they it's their personal self, right? And being able to take that into account that is not just you, and how do you best work with that person on the similarities and the differences, but sometimes the similarities, Amy and I are both strong leaders, sometimes that can be the challenge that you have to strong leaders, and knowing when to let the other person take the lead. And that's one of the things Amy and I have worked on. And I think we've accomplished that when to let the other person take the lead because we know a little bit about each other's strengths. So it's very emotional to me to learn all of this tomorrow more about myself, and then for me is how do I share that you know, the first person that I want to share with and he'll be reading the book to with my husband, because I think anyone that either you work closely with, or you have a relationship with, you both need to understand who you are, which is why I think is so powerful in the classroom, if you're going to spend a whole year in a classroom with these students, and really get to know each other. And then that's how we get away from managing kids to really knowing kids and having a relationship with them. And knowing why they have some of the quirks that they have, right? Or some of the things that may drive us crazy. But I want you to talk. So I want you to give you this last time to really talk about the book, and what your hope is that this book will bring to bring to people.

Darrell Griffin: 48:10

So in the book, I help you talk about the Enneagram. It's not an extensive piece on the Enneagram. The book is about the Enneagram. But you know, it's so much that you can talk about, but my purpose point of the book is to get you to your purpose, and also to help people. There's a section that I have in the book on how to handle staph infections. You know, Staph infections don't just occur in the hospital, in home, and having a staph infection at work. And then I talk about that I talk about how do you deal with these people that really are irritating you. And you know, really making you feel uncomfortable. And part of that is helping you to know yourself so that at some point, you have to address it. You know, you have to get the courage from within to address it, instead of letting the people just walk all over you. The other thing is I talk about how to handle cave people. K people are citizens against virtually everything. So when you're dealing with people who are against every single thing, and you've had that with faculty, you go you go left, they want to go right, there's not me and you say well, what do you want? Well, I don't want that. And so it's just it's just how do you handle those things? And the Enneagram becomes the tool to help you deal with some of that. So often say part of what I'm trying to do is to help you understand yourself and understand how do you manage difficult people? How do you have the tools to be able to handle all of these different personalities? Because sometimes it feels like we're we're leading a daycare center versus an organization because everybody's whining and crying about something but I I want People realize that Maya Angelou said, long after people forget what you said to them, they always remember how you made them feel. And so part of this thing is is helping you to become aware, is Dr. Joy and Dr. Amy are they going to completely change as a result of this? No, but I hope that they have some sense of awareness. So now you become aware of some things, because the more you know, the more you grow. And I want to know from people in reading this, when you're building a better you remember, you can't do this overnight, it takes time to build a better you, it's takes time to understand your purpose, it takes time for you to find to get healing, and success in relationships. But this is the first journey, first step in that journey to doing that. So that's what I wrote the book about, because I know from my own self, the Enneagram, really, really helped me understand myself and helped me to lead better helped me to be a better son, a better father, a better husband, it helped me to do all of that. Because now I have the tools to be able to operate with that. And then now as a leader, you know, when I, when I teach it at the school, for the for the faculty, now we don't take it personal. We're not taking this stuff personal, like we used to, and the parents are not taking it personal. Because it's funny, when parents start understanding that the teachers personality, and the teachers are starting to understand the parents personality, then they kind of get it. Because it's hard when you're doing we teach we go up to the eighth grade. It's hard teaching with people, the kids have great, but it's the parents that can drive you crazy. So we need tools. And remember, if you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. So this is just another tool in the toolbox to help us understand ourselves. And

Amy Vujaklija: 52:08

I just want to emphasize what you said earlier about purpose. And when we have our purpose, and we're driving in the same direction as our purpose is calling us to go, we're not going to get run over. Right, I just think those are such powerful words to take just one of the many takeaways from this podcast today for our listeners. Right. And

Darrell Griffin: 52:38

you know, what talk to me to drill down a little bit further in that is, it's just like staying in your lane. And when you when you think about during the Olympics, when people are running in a relay race or running in a race, they're not looking at what other people are doing. They're looking ahead, people fall when you're looking at what other people are doing. That's when you trip and fall. But as long as you stay focused in what's ahead, you can run the race. And what I'm just saying is the Enneagram helps me stay focused in my purpose, so that I'm not looking over here and looking over there, and seeing what you're doing and seeing what that person is doing. And then I trip and fall. That making sense.

Joi Patterson: 53:24

Absolutely.

Amy Vujaklija: 53:26

Thank you so much. This has been so inspiring. Not just insightful, but inspiring. And I really am. I know our listeners will get a lot out of this. And don't be surprised if people start contacting you say can you look at our Enneagram to

Darrell Griffin: 53:47

do it. I do it all the time. Is this

Joi Patterson: 53:51

another way of ministry is this ministry for you? It

Darrell Griffin: 53:55

really is. It really is. I really find it exciting to help people understand themselves. And remember, I didn't I only talk to you guys one time. So everything I shared with you. I mean, it wasn't something that I it's great.

Joi Patterson: 54:14

It wasn't magic, right?

Darrell Griffin: 54:16

You get what I'm saying? And so imagine what this is like when I do coaching or when I'm doing counseling when I'm helping couples understand themselves. My young adults from the church, they love this because they're dating the students when I go to the different colleges for their like helping them with freshman week or you know helping them with the fresh the freshmen love it because guess what they're dating. So now they've got tools to understand their relationships and they have tools to understand themselves and their their roommates and their people in their dorm and people in your classroom and their professors. They have So they enjoy me teaching that Enneagram to them, because I make it fun. Wow,

Amy Vujaklija: 55:05

I've had fun. So I'm really glad that we were able to talk to you today. And thank you. Thank you for being here very much. It's really been so incredible.

Darrell Griffin: 55:18

Thank you. I really appreciate it and I'm anytime you want to talk about the INIA gram, you know, I love to talk about such as let me know.

Amy Vujaklija: 55:27

Thank you for listening to teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi. Visit our website at gov s t.edu/teaching and leading podcast to see the show notes from this episode.

Joi Patterson: 55:44

We appreciate Governor State University's work behind the things to make publishing possible. Stay tuned for more episodes with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi