Cultivating Culturally Responsive Teaching Practices with Mr. Shannon Swilley
Shannon Swilley, an experienced educator and advocate for culturally responsive teaching, discusses the importance of understanding students' cultural backgrounds to enhance learning. He emphasizes that teaching is a complex craft requiring empathy, social intelligence, and continuous growth. Swilley's research highlights that while teachers acknowledge the benefits of culturally responsive practices, they often harbor reservations. He stresses the need for educators to be vulnerable and to focus on the whole child, not just content. Swilley also discusses the challenges in implementing these practices and the importance of professional development tailored to individual needs.
Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
culturally responsive teaching, achievement gap, educational equity, teacher empathy, student engagement, professional development, emotional intelligence, diverse learners, educational leadership, equity work, student needs, teaching craft, educational research, teacher support, inclusive practices
SPEAKERS
Amy Vujaklija, Shannon Swilley, Joi Patterson
Shannon Swilley:with cultural, responsive teaching ideas that you make, who that student is an asset in the learning process, rather than simply making the content the paramount concern,
Amy Vujaklija:welcome to our podcast, teaching and leading with Dr Amy and Dr Joi I am Dr Amy Vujaklija, Director of educator preparation,
Joi Patterson:and I am Dr Joi Patterson, Chief Diversity Officer. Our podcast addresses issues through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow as educators. So join us on our journey to become better teachers and leaders. So let's get into it.
Amy Vujaklija:Hello. Dr Joi, hello.
Joi Patterson:Dr Amy, how are you?
Amy Vujaklija:I am really interested in the conversation that we're going to have today, especially in light of the legislation for culturally responsive teaching practices, and now to talk to someone who's really in the thick of it, researching, practicing, implementing. So I'm excited about what we're going to talk about.
Joi Patterson:I'm excited, too, you know, I do have one question, because we're really talking about culturally responsive teaching and leading or practices because of our huge achievement gap, right? And so one of my question for our guests is, does the achievement gap mean teaching better or teaching differently?
Amy Vujaklija:Ooh, I think that's both. Let's see what we hear today. Mr. Shannon Swilley is an incredible child centered leader who has worked in educational leadership for 14 of his 20 year career. Mr. Swilley has held various roles in the educational system. He has taught African American History and worked as a Dean of Students, associate principal, athletic director and principal. His background in education includes building a continuum of equitable educational opportunities for all students and deepening engagement for students and their families. As an educational consultant, he has seen many stages and endeavors to impact change on a deeply personal level, in conjunction with establishing equitable solutions, Mr. Swilley has a strong passion and gift for building leaders. Mr. Swilley has worked hard to impact change in the community in which he lives. Besides being named Educator of the Year in select districts, Swilley was recognized as a recipient of the 40 under 40 for his local community. He is a co host of a podcast focused on equity. As an adjunct professor, he has challenged learners to be critical and purposeful in their work. Mr. Swilley holds master's degrees in school improvement and leadership and teaching from Olivet Nazarene University, where he also earned his bachelor's degree in history while starring on the ONU basketball team. He is pursuing his doctoral degree at the University of St Francis, focusing on educational equity, and is expected to complete his program of study in july 2025 so welcome to our podcast. Shannon Swilley,
Joi Patterson:hi, Shannon, how are you?
Shannon Swilley:I am well, hello. Joi, hello, Amy, how are you ladies?
Joi Patterson:Good, and that July is coming fast, and I mean just all the accolades, even you yourself. Shannon, you have to smile when you hear everything that you have accomplished, and you've accomplished a lot in a very short amount of time. But before we get into this topic, let's get personal. So tell us about your beginnings, your educational journey and your career. So talk to us about who you are. Shannon,
Shannon Swilley:gladly, first, I want to say thank you for the introduction. Amy, that was, that was kind. So it is, it is hard to really think about the all the places that you've been, because you know you want to, you want to just keep moving forward, and you want to keep doing things that are that are going to, going to add value to the lives of those around you. So my my beginnings, I guess I'll start on a personal level. I am the 14th. Child of 17 children. My My parents had been married 61 years before my mom passed in 21 and I am the 14th of those 17. So same mom, same dad. All siblings share the same parents. So growing up in in Maywood, Illinois, with with that family size, you can imagine there were, there were some financial challenges to say the least. It was, it was, it was hard in that context of being able to to always have the things that others around you would have, or sometimes just having the the basics. You know, in some cases, but our parents always did a did a very good job of figuring it out and getting us what we needed. So I'm grateful for, for for those humble beginnings to be able to know that, you know, it things just don't come easily. So that's, that's how I grew up.
Joi Patterson:You know, before Doctor Amy asked you a question, I just have to comment on this family, which is amazing, and the fact that you've accomplished so much, I mean, congratulations to your parents for doing such an excellent job. I can't even imagine, but I imagine that everybody in Maywood knew a Swilley, right? You can always say that one graduated with this person, that one graduated with that person.
Shannon Swilley:That is, that is exactly right. I have a ton of people that I meet, especially in education, and they will say, you know, they'll ask about family members. And I, yeah, that's, that's my brother. That's my sister. Yeah, I went to school with them. So there, there are tons of separation by six degrees or six degrees of separation, so to speak.
Amy Vujaklija:So I want to move into our topic of teaching. First, broadly, teaching has been described as a science and art. It also a craft in your various roles in education, what have you come to believe about teaching, and what would you like to see when we talk about teaching as a craft?
Shannon Swilley:Wow, I would. I would definitely say the first thing that comes to my mind is something that I say often, which is, teaching could be the easiest job in the world if you don't care, but if you care, it is probably by far, one of the most difficult tasks that someone could take on. I believe that in order to be an effective teacher, it requires a great deal of multi faceted skills. You have to be able to have empathy, to be able to read, to read people, you have to care about people, not just children, but their families as well, because when you teach a child, you are now emotionally connected to that family in some way. And so there, there are so many different levels of really, really complex book knowledge that you have to have about teaching, and then the really complex social knowledge and social intelligence that you have to have in the craft of teaching, and then when to use them and how to use them. I've seen research, and I can't tout it exactly the way that I've read it, but I know that there's research about the number of decisions a teacher has to make, they are constantly making decisions, and they're not small decisions. They may seem small in the scheme for those who don't understand but the choices that teachers make in the day are massive, and they have they have an impact that reverberates far, far beyond that particular time. So yeah, that I would say that teaching it is a craft, that it is something that people have to have to grow into in order to become really effective at it. But it's also something that there's there's there's this passion that I think needs to be there in order to execute teaching effectively.
Joi Patterson:I could not agree more. Dr Amy and I were very well versed in culturally responsive teaching for a variety of reasons, we've had to do a lot of work in this area, and you're also doing work in this area, in your research. So in general terms, can you tell our listeners what it is to use culturally responsive teaching practices.
Shannon Swilley:Yeah, so when, when we, when we look at culturally responsive teaching practices, you could easily look it up and it'll say something like this, which is essentially, it's the idea of drawing on the cultural backgrounds of the students in the classrooms to make learning relevant. Now, we've heard about this idea of relevance in learning for a long time, right? It's one of those words that we talk about, and then, and also we shift, and we have things like differentiation there are tons of different things that we talk about with with quality teaching, but with cultural, responsive teaching, ideas that you make who that student is an asset in the learning process. Rather than simply making the content the paramount concern, I start to rely on who you are and what is it that How should I frame the content that I want you to learn in a way that makes what I'm trying to teach you relevant to you, that makes you want to be drawn into it. You know, there are people who say, you know, I know a kid who has his pilot license. I think he's 17 years old, and from the very first time that he saw an airplane, it was like drawn in this. This was something that they wanted, and it just kind of spoke to that kid. And so I think that, you know, with culturally responsive teaching, when we're able to really, and this is a major component of culturally responsive teaching, is to know who it is that you're teaching, to take the time to dig into knowing who they are.
Joi Patterson:And you know, I'm glad you responded that way, and it didn't sound like Dei. And I'm saying that for a reason, because that's under fire for a number of reasons, but when we're talking about culturally responsive teaching practices, as you stated, you're actually looking at the whole child based on what you said. You didn't talk about color, you didn't talk about gender, you didn't talk about any of those things, but you're actually encapsulating the whole child and understanding that child and all that that child comes with
Shannon Swilley:yes and, and I think that that's that's part, that's part of the the challenge that we present to others when you say dei is coming under under fire. That is very true. But that challenge that dei presents is to be able to truly learn the process of accepting someone for who they are and then loving them along whatever process they're on, to help teach them. It is a very I would say, and sometimes this work can be used incorrectly, but it's almost an intimate relationship of understanding how it is to connect with someone, to get them into a different level of understanding. And that's why I say teaching as a craft, and then culturally responsive teaching helps you to understand that all of who that person is matters when you're learning math, all of who that person is matters when you're doing English, language, arts, science. It all comes into comes into play, and we have to be the teachers that figure that out absolutely
Amy Vujaklija:and it's hard to get to know the whole student. That when we ourselves are vulnerable and we lay ourselves open, then children open up to us as well and show pieces of just by us expressing interest,
Shannon Swilley:I agree 100% I believe that there are things like vulnerability that we have to show students by leading by example. And it's okay for us to sit down and say that we don't have all the answers all the time. It's okay for us to say that we are not completely happy all the time. It's okay to say that we're not okay, you know, and we have to show our students how to do those things, because they don't come naturally. Our students have to be taught those things from a young age. And it's not a measure of weakness to simply say, I'm not okay right now. That's not what that is. It is. It is a measure of understanding where you are and how where you are and what you're feeling might be impeding your progress, and what steps you need to take to get around where you are and how you're feeling so
Amy Vujaklija:well we mentioned in your bio, as we got started with the program today, you are pursuing your doctoral degree focusing on educational equity. Could you tell us about your dissertation research and what motivated your study?
Shannon Swilley:Wow, so I'll start with the motivation part. For the motivation part, it was there were a few different factors. The first I'll tell you, is, is my family? My biological family, my siblings, you know, one thing that we, we've always heard, is education is the great equalizer. There isn't a member of my family who wouldn't sit down with me when I was younger and say things like, you know, work hard in school, do your best in school. That's gonna, that's gonna pay off in the long run, you know. But what I was able to do once I became a teacher is I started to ask those questions, because I taught African American history. And it was, it was strange how in teaching African American history, and this is where Dr Joi, I think the this educational equity that does have a focus on race, and a focus on on gender and things to that effect. I when I look at African American history and how, throughout the entire time, it seems that our country has, and I'm trying to say this in a very simple way, but more of an obsession, almost, with the idea of, or just with oppression, and then the denial of the oppression. And so I continue to look at how education has been serviced for people of color, but particularly black people. As a black man, when I see that, I just became so engrossed in the idea of how to make this really be the great equalizer, and what steps are we missing? So those were really important factors for me in terms of, you know, what motivated me to do the study in my first principalship, I was tasked with doing a great deal of equity work for our entire district, and I absolutely loved it, because I first drew on my my roots in African American history, and then all the things that I was learning with cultural responsive teaching and all of the many popular authors out there that are writing about how to make change for for the achievement gap, so to speak. So my work is really focused on how teachers are perceiving cultural responsive practices. What I what I learned was many teachers on a Likert scale knew the answer. They knew today, culturally responsive teaching is good. They knew to say, culturally responsive teaching helps, helps students of color. They knew to say, you know, on the on the high end, these things are working. But when asked to be more verbose, to talk a little bit more and to write a little bit about how they felt. There were far, far, far more reservations. And the reservations were, were pretty clear, leaning far more negative. And it would be the situation of, yeah, it works but, and then the but would have you know, all of the the reasons as to why it doesn't, or it shouldn't, or, you know, things to consider to make sure that it doesn't get off the rails. Or there was always a warning and always a but. And so the perception that, the overwhelming perception from the research, was that we know the right answer, but what we really believe about this particular strategy, about these practices, was something very, very different, and that impacts practice.
Amy Vujaklija:Well, that goes back to what you were saying, what we were just talking about, with vulnerability and being open, being a model for the children in the classroom, and if we can't be vulnerable on a survey or on your questionnaire and answering what we really think, and maybe that's some other indication that more needs to be done to help make teachers feel safe in being vulnerable and implementing these practices.
Joi Patterson:Yeah, Amy and I, we were just having a conversation with someone earlier today about being comfortable, being uncomfortable, and being and being able to have these real discussions. It just brings to mind so much. You know, I talk to Amy sometimes about, how do we change the job description for teachers, that their job is not to teach, their jobs are for students to learn, and that's a very different job description of when we say your job is for students to learn, and you have to do something differently, You know, I led a team here. So we work on this in higher ed. It's not just a P through 12, you know, for two reasons. I mean, we're teaching students very, very diverse students. And when you add in the fact that you have adult students as well, it just becomes more diverse. And so we promote that here for our professors, but also we are preparing teachers and educators, so it's embedded in the program. So when I was leading a team here to implement the Crtl standards into our curriculum, we spent the majority of our time. And when I say the majority of our time we spent, this was weekly meetings for about 12 weeks. So we spent the majority of our time not talking about the standards, not talking about aligning them to the curriculum. Because many of them would have finished that task in a week and say, Oh, we do this. We do this. Let me chart this out for you. Let me put check check, but really having a conversation and understanding what it is, because if you do not have an affinity for it, you know, if you can't embrace it,
Shannon Swilley:yes,
Joi Patterson:then you're not going. To implement it with fidelity. So my question to you, I'm saying a whole lot. I haven't asked you a question yet. Do you think that most teachers that you talk to, because now this is your job, you know, you're working with teachers on a different level and more intimately, that you get to actually work with individual teachers, that most teachers value, value the integration of culturally responsive teaching practice.
Shannon Swilley:I would have to answer that question very unfortunately in the negative I think that, and I'll tell you why I think that it's based first on on some of the research that I've done for both the lit review as well as the actual study that I did, but it's also based on some some concepts that come up, often in equity. One of the things that I really appreciate about John Hattie's work. And everyone talks about John Hattie, and some people can can refute him and say that you know his his studies may be X, Y or Z, but we know that he is a marvelous researcher and has very good data. But the thing that I appreciate about John Hattie's writings is he says, first and foremost, that we need to think about how we think about teaching. We need to change how we think about what we do. We need to reconsider how our our thought processes, about our practices, and I think that the reason why, why that is, is because too often do we want to boil this down to content. I absolutely love African American history, but it was a new day for me, when I was first, second year, teacher and a student had a really, really intense concern, and it had nothing to do with African American history, and that child had no interest in learning African American history. Despite being a young African American female, what she had was a different need that was there first and foremost, and that needed to be addressed before I could do anything else. And understanding that I don't teach African American history, but I teach people, I teach students, I teach kids, you know. And so that thought process is what I think gets in the way. And even now, I often hear some people mention in the profession, you know, we need to get back to the basics, and we need to to get back to the standards. And I agree standards are always going to be important, and we should not, you know, Veer to, you know, far from standards at all. But I do. I am concerned, because I think that what they might be asking for is the freedom to absolve themselves of the responsibility of trying to really know who those kids are and what they need, because that is the heart of the work. And I'll be honest with you, it's the most difficult work, because we all went to school for to be a math teacher. So we know the one plus one and the two plus two, and we know you know what the formula is, but the other part of how to do and how to say, and when to say, and what voice and in what tone, and when to call home, and what language to use, and how to make sure that you're you're talking in a way that is affirmative, but you're still demanding that, that the kid achieves, like those are all things that are really hard to do. And I think people sometimes want to get past that and simply disregard it.
Amy Vujaklija:I want to return to your example. You talked about a student who came in to your class African American history, but there were different needs. So what is the risk of failing to implement culturally responsive teaching practices? What happens when we don't do this?
Shannon Swilley:So I think we have an abundance of evidence in terms of what the risk is, because we look at where the achievement gap is, and the conversation can go in a lot of different directions, but really, simply put, what we have is is an amazing, amazing concern. When I say amazing, I mean that almost in a on the negative side of that, in terms of where our achievement gap is throughout the country. You know, students of color are are far behind Non, non students of color right now, and it's not okay, and that gap is it for a while. There it was narrowing, but it's not anymore, and we need to do more more work to ensure that we can move students of color further along that continuum, because what that comes out to be is the responsibility of the teacher to ensure that kids are learning. And what I'll say even in speaking of, you know, when I thought about my siblings, you know, we we went to school, my older brothers and sisters. They went to school, and they came every day asking for the tools to be able to make something better of themselves, of their siblings, of their children. And they came each day begging for for those tools, right, myself, all of us. And there were places where they were given those things, and there were places where, where they they weren't. And when a child walks away from us, from our classrooms, from our spaces, whether it's that day, that week, that school year, that I mean, if it's a k5 building, and they're moving on the sixth grade, when they walk away from us and they don't have that, that that is a breach of an agreement. We made an agreement as an educator. And again, I am not saying that that it needs to be that every single child all the time, because there may be some some situations there I get that I know that that's the that's the case, but I'm saying that that number needs to be exceptionally small, and it's not. It needs to be really, really small, down to the point where we can pinpoint and say, Okay, here's what we did wrong, but we're we're not really doing that. We are. We are allowing far, far too many kids, and the trouble is that they all look the same.
Joi Patterson:Yep, you're absolutely right. You're speaking truth. And trust me, we have those same challenges here in the higher ed i do have a question that I asked Dr Amy earlier, and we alluded to this a little bit, you know, because the reason that we are implementing these practices, you know, to improve teaching is really about closing the achievement gap, right? Because of the same students you hear that are lagging behind. So when you think about that, you think about the art of teaching, the craft of teaching, the science of teaching. Does closing the achievement gap mean teaching better or teaching differently?
Shannon Swilley:That's a great question, and I think the answer that is both. I think the answer is both. I think that it needs to be that we are teaching differently than the way we are right now. And that's kind of what I mentioned about John Hattie's research, in the sense that we need to think about this very differently than we have in the past. We need to be far more creative about how we address these concerns. But it also means that we are making a steady clip at getting better we talk about, and I'll use the athletic concept, the idea of an athlete, you know, every every day as an athlete. You know when I played basketball 30 pounds and 25 moons ago, when I when I was a player, I was thinking about, how do I get better at these particular skills, and how do I build on the things that I'm good at, and then how do I help to grow the things that I'm not so good at? And those things were happening each time I was able to have access, to get in the gym, to get with the basketball and as a teacher, we have to have the same responsibility that not only am I trying to help the kids grow, which is why it's so difficult, I also need to need to grow. And that's why professional development is so important, and that's the leadership part of it. The leaders have to be able to design professional development, that that really can first of all be universal and then be individualized for teachers, as well as make it to where teachers have a chance to do professional development that is embedded within their school day. I'm wondering how difficult it is. It is hard to teach, and part of teaching true story is that there are things that we do take home sometimes, right? We're going to have to go home and grade papers and do lessons and create experiments and all these things. We're going to have to do those things. But if we can help to lessen those hours at home by building them into the school day, then it is incumbent upon school leaders to figure out how to do that for teachers. Because, right? It doesn't just mean, hey, teacher wellness means that you do less and kids not learn. It means that we have to be creative on both ends, the teacher and the administrator,
Joi Patterson:right. Because oftentimes what we hear teachers are frustrated, and especially when you have what we consider good, hard working teachers, and that they're dumped on and it seems like they can never do good enough. But something that I heard you say, and I asked a question, does teaching better? Is it teaching better or teaching differently? And kind of what I heard you say is teaching better means you have to teach differently, because you also have to be efficient. So this can't be another thing that's piled on to what you're already doing, and that's how teachers get burned out. Is because it's always something to. Being piled on. Okay? Now do this. That doesn't work. Now, do this. Now, do this. Now, do this. Now, do this. So it's not a matter of piling something on. It's about shedding some things and doing some things differently,
Amy Vujaklija:well. And just what we were saying and what you were saying earlier was students learn when they are welcomed into the classroom. That child who came into your history course couldn't learn until you addressed the person, until you met that student's needs. That might mean teaching differently for some teachers, but that is meaning teaching better.
Shannon Swilley:I agree 100%. you, your words, both of you, Dr Amy and Dr Joi, they you. You made me think of two books that I think very highly of. One is called the one thing, but I think Jay Patterson and Keller and the other is motion leadership by Michael fallen and essentially what they're talking about in those books is how to narrow your the scope of your work to things that matter the most. How to work on work harder and work longer on high leverage things, and kind of whittle out the things that don't matter. And I'll give you a great example, in a lot of low performing schools, one of the things that we do is we say, hey, teachers, you got to turn in your lesson plans, and then teachers turn in the lesson plans to administrators, and administrators are busting their butts. They're working hard all throughout the day. And you know what? They don't look at those lesson plans, but you have a large number of staff that are that are stressing about getting those lesson plans turned in, and they're working through that, and that is a major stressor. And here's what we know about the research, turning in lesson plans means nothing. It has no impact on student on student growth, on student achievement. And so we're asking teachers to do something that is stressful for them, but absolutely has no added value to the process of growing kids. So there is a process for finding out how teachers plan. It's called evaluation. You can do walkthroughs, you can do informal those are ways to find those things out. It is also it also means that the administrator has to work differently. And so I think that when we can start learning how to to move in that idea of just getting down to what really matters the most, what is it that I want the most? And how can I move these levers to ensure that I'm doing more work for that and less work for things that are, you know, not really as important.
Amy Vujaklija:I love what you're saying about really zooming in on fundamentals, on key pieces that really move the needle. Sometimes we are trying to do everything, all the time, all at once. Yes, and it doesn't move the needle as much as maybe one or two really tightly focused initiatives. So my question is, what suggestions might you have for us in educator preparation to improve candidates positive impact in the classroom on day one?
Shannon Swilley:Wow. I think that is a that is a great question to ask. Of course, we're always going to say that it is good for teachers to have a good, healthy understanding of the standards that they have to teach. Right? A teacher's ability to know is going to always be helpful. So I'll always put that out there as something that's that's going to be a constant learning piece that's in there. I kind of think of that as you know the weight lifting, if you will, in the training process, something that's always there, that's always going to add value, but you're always revisiting, right? You're constantly revisiting. And then there is the thing that really gets to the heart of it is how it is that teachers are able to structure and understand the emotional intelligence component of classroom management, when teachers are able to walk into a space and know and have The ability to understand what they want from kids and the ability to execute their have a plan and execute that plan with fidelity in terms of what is expected on a daily basis for all of different procedures and practice those things that helps for kids to settle in, to say, this is an okay, safe place for me, I can function in this place, right? And then the task beyond that. And again, this is why it's a craft, because while you're doing those things, you're still teaching standards, right, and while you're doing those things, you're also finding out how to connect with kids and draw them into the space, right, and make sure that they are able to speak and have a voice in what's happening in that classroom. So that emotional part of really understanding how to connect with kids, I hear people say often, we've gotten away from teaching and we're all into this SEL nowadays, we've gotten away from quality teaching, and we're only into the emotional. But what we know is that it is really, hard for a kid to get out of the emotional space when that emotional space is not well, and the reason why we know that is because we adults have the exact same concern. Because we're human, we have trouble showing up if there are people who go to work every day and they hate it. They hate their jobs. And I'm not talking about teaching just and that issue of being in that space around people that you might not like, or feeling unwanted or disconnected, that impacts the quality of the work that they actually produce. It impacts their attendance. It impacts, you know, so many different decisions that they make, and we sometimes come to teaching and pretend that that doesn't matter anymore, but it does
Joi Patterson:absolutely so question, what is your hope for the impact of your dissertation research?
Shannon Swilley:Oh, wow. So I think my my hope is, is for people who engage in educational equity to understand that there is no threat to them, whether whatever your race is, you know. What I do know is that often in these trainings, and this is what this research says. The research says that many, many white participants of diversity equity, inclusion trainings. May feel walk away feeling like they're being blamed. They may walk away feeling guilty, or, you know, to that. And I want my hope is for people to understand that that is not, first of all, the intent and and if that's what you're hearing, then it's okay for you to stay at the table until you can hear it differently. So that's the biggest hope. Is because the things that we do in those types of trainings, workshops for diversity, equity, inclusion, that include cultural, responsive teaching, they are designed to help us understand that we have to be the ones to recognize, appreciate and elevate difference in our class. We have to be okay with that. And if we, if we're not going to do that, then we're not going to to achieve what it is we we are our stated goals, so to speak. But I think that's the biggest thing that for me, first and foremost, this is not a cultural responsive teaching is not a threat to anyone. It is actually an advantage to all.
Amy Vujaklija:I'm really looking forward to the finished product, because you have a book ready to deliver to us, and I can't wait to talk to you about the findings and your next steps.
Shannon Swilley:Thank you. I am excited as well. I'm excited first because I love the topic, but I'm also excited to be done. yes, I'm very excited for that.
Joi Patterson:Very good yeah, that July date is right around the corner.
Shannon Swilley:Definitely, definitely.
Amy Vujaklija:Thank you so much for this conversation. This has been fantastic.
Shannon Swilley:Thank you both for allowing me to spend time with you. Thank you for all of your insight. And I just, I'm grateful to be with you. So
Amy Vujaklija:thank you for listening to teaching and leading with Dr Amy and Dr Joi. Visit our website at G, O, v, s, t.edu/teaching, and leading podcast to see the show notes from this episode,
Joi Patterson:We appreciate Governor State University's work behind the scenes to make publishing possible. Stay tuned for more episodes with Dr Amy and Dr Joi.
