Reboot: Being Solution-Focused about Educator Burn Out with Dr. Kerry Klima

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

teacher, work, structures, burnout, pandemic, klima, students, mental health, conversation, amy, higher ed, educators, teaching, talk, meetings, years, campus, leading, mindfulness, education

SPEAKERS

Amy Vujaklija, Joi Patterson, Kerry Klima

Kerry Klima: 00:00

Do we really need to study what teachers need or what educators need? Because I think we make a lot of assumptions.

Amy Vujaklija: 00:10

This episode was originally released under the podcast titled teaching and learning theory versus practice. This rebooted episode has been migrated to teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joy. I am Dr. Amy Vujaklija, Director of educator preparation.

Joi Patterson: 00:29

And I am Dr. Joi Patterson, Chief Diversity Officer. Our podcast addresses issues through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow as educators.

Amy Vujaklija: 00:45

So join us on our journey become better teachers, and later. So let's get into it. Good morning, Dr. Joi.

Joi Patterson: 00:55

Good morning. Dr. Amy, how are you this morning?

Amy Vujaklija: 00:59

Well, I've been thinking a lot about how much we take on and how little we pay attention to our mental health. Yeah,

Joi Patterson: 01:09

I've been doing some research. And I discovered a lot about the topic that we're going to discuss today, which is on teacher burnout. That goes across the gamut not just teachers, but specifically, we're going to talk about teacher burnout. And it's not a favorite subject. But today we're going to get really real and talking about teacher burnout, some of the things that I've learned is that 66% of teachers want to leave their job, and 41.3 of new teachers leave the profession within the first five years. It also states in this one research that teachers also suffer from higher average rates of drug and alcohol use. And at any given point in time 36.4 are likely to quit. Those are some staggering statistics. So today, we are going to be revealing the real costs of how we treat teachers. And I think based on recent events with the pandemic, we all have a greater appreciation for teachers. I know we're going to talk about what is exactly teacher burnout, what is it? And what is the average length of time on a job? And most importantly, what do we do to curb teacher burnout. So I'm excited to talk about the solution about burnout.

Amy Vujaklija: 02:44

And that's what I like about our conversations. We don't shy away from these tough topics, it would look like we would want to just highlight the great things that are happening in education. And of course there are, but we can't skirt away from tough topics too, because without talking about them, we can't find solutions. And I like our solution oriented focus. And that's why we're going to talk to Dr. Kerry Klima. Yes. Dr. Kerry Klima is a scholar of mental health and wellbeing in higher education administrators. She also serves as the Senior Director of assessment and Educational Partnerships at California State University Long Beach. She completed her PhD at Bowling Green State University in higher education administration, and she has been at CSULB, since 2017. And with the McNair project, since it came back to campus in 2017, to support traditionally underrepresented students in graduate education. So prior to working there, she was in student affairs areas at various institution types with over 12 years of professional experience. Her research interests are on staff well being in student affairs, and student affairs professionals professional development. Most importantly, she support scholars as they prepare to enter graduate education in PhD programs while supporting their identity development. That's interesting to me that identity development through their programming and services. Welcome to our podcast. Dr. Klima.

Kerry Klima: 04:44

Thank you. Thank you. It's wonderful to be here.

Joi Patterson: 04:46

Good morning, Dr. Klima. Good to see you. You look wonderful this morning. Well, certainly we're not suffering from burnout this morning. You guys all look wonderful. And before you came on, Dr. Amy and I we were talking about teacher burnout. And I was going over some of the staggering statistics, which you know, all too well back to claimer. We know that teaching is a very stressful job. But there's consequences when teachers are overloaded with being exhausted when we feel defeated, you know, because we all go into teaching, this is our dream job, right? It's like a dream, we're going to change the world, we all go into teaching with that mindset. And then you get into the classroom. And it's all but that things are coming at you in all kinds of ways. And it's hard to get a grass. And so you have taken a time to tackle this. So we're not as Dr. Amy said, we're not going to shy away today from the heart conversation, right? And the reality that there's a teacher burnout, but we're going to be very solution oriented today as well. So before we get into all that, I just want to learn more about you. And kind of what led you to your passion and research on mental health and burnout for educators.

Kerry Klima: 06:10

I agree, I think I was just working in the field and working in education and seeing my friends and colleagues leave. Right. So I think there were these progressions of stress, leading to burnout leading to them leaving. And so that really led to my inquiry, and why are folks leaving? And so I think there's a lot of literature that's looking at that, why, why are people leaving Higher Education and Student Affairs in particular. And it really stemmed from a number of things. But I also linked it to and found some connections to this well being work life notion, and that if we're not mindful that that can be one of these reasons or contributing factors to why someone would leave. And so for me, it was just concerning that they're burning out and leaving, right? Like, they're, we're not even sustaining these highly qualified, highly trained, wonderful professionals. And so my study really explored those with mental health conditions who stayed. So what were the things that helped them to manage? And what were things that worked well, but didn't work well, and things that really contributed to their mental health like and concerns around their mental health really, right, we all have mental health, but the concerns around their mental health and navigating the role that work played on that. It really was just out of seeing others leave and see my friends go through that that stress and me getting that stress to kind of navigating it.

Amy Vujaklija: 07:33

What would you say? Were some of the work structures that were traditionally in place that you noticed contributed to the burnout or to people leaving?

Kerry Klima: 07:44

Yeah, I think education is an interesting I mean, I think about K 12. Right, they have their school hours. And some someone say like, oh, they have a great working schedule this, I'm not in K 12. But this is just the my friends and family who are in, but then there, it's not the after school, it's the class prep. It's the emails and the constant conversations with family or the committee work that happens. That's not what we're talking about either, right? How are we situating talks around the curriculum. And so I think sometimes folks thinks, oh, educators have this great schedule, but there's the schedule of the day. And then there's all the things that have to happen outside of that. And I think that is the structure that is kind of how education has operated. But then that leads to not really knowing how to balance it. And so some of my other researches in ideal worker norms, and this idea that workers are just replaceable. So you can just come in and do this job. And if you don't want to do it, someone else will. And so I don't really care about you as a human, because I just care about this employee, and this seat is employee in this classroom in this spot. And so I think those structures have been in place where it kind of can create this place of like, well, when there were times like education or job shortages, right after the recession, there's this like, well, I better do everything I can to make sure I get my job and keep my job and hit home like the 10 year piece. And so what are all these things that I'm adding on that I think I need to be doing to help and make sure that I sustained and I'm doing okay, I think that is this this piece that we have to kind of challenge that assumption?

Amy Vujaklija: 09:10

Well want to tag on to that notion of what do we think we need to do in order to keep our jobs. But in education, we also perpetuate this norm of A we're not in it for the money. We also feel guilty when we see a club or a task that needs to be done. And no one is there to lead it. So students would miss out Why do we feel guilty when we don't take on more?

Kerry Klima: 09:38

Yeah, it's it. I was thinking about this. And you know, one of the things in my doctoral education, they talked about values, vision mission, we catch people from their values. I think I'm in this because my values, I believe in education, I believe in supporting and so we kind of sometimes go a little too far with that and expect that everyone has that value structure and so then they should do X, Y and Z. So to me, I think that some of this of like, let me kind of do this because my value is to support student growth and to change the world. And so if I help with that recycling club, like, that's going to be the thing that that student feels connected to you, and they'll feel connect to the school, and they'll be excited about class and they'll be excited about this. I think what I try to do and in higher ed, we have to try to do is, is that the best mechanism for that student support? Right? And I think sometimes if a student is coming with us, to us with an idea, we're excited because they want to engage in higher ed, I feel like that's amazing. And we have we're a little bit more cognitively developed at that point. But we can have this conversation of is that the best thing? Or is there another option that maybe already exists that we already have the structures for? But I think it's I have to learn, and we have to learn to help train our brains to not just respond right away, like, oh, my gosh, yes, I'll do it. I'm so sorry that you've had no one there for you. I'm here for you. Like it's okay for us to pause, right. And really think about is this the best thing, because there are other solutions, I think, to meet the students needs that maybe don't require us to be the person and the only person that's there. For them.

Joi Patterson: 11:08

It's really the disposition of a teacher that you want to help and you want to fill in all those gaps Amy and I have talked about before my husband is was that one I very high needs. And on Fridays, he used to cut hair. So you have to limit it, he said I'll cut hair for 10. Boys on Friday, bring their shirts home, we watch their shirts, because oftentimes, they were that same shirt the entire week, and basketball coach on to toe on top of teaching. He's the barber, and he's the basketball coach, and you're trying to fill in all of these gaps, so that the students have what they need. And at the same time, you're really draining yourself and you're stretching yourself so thin that you can't be your best. And next, I want you to do something on what is the burnout for your spouse that has to listen to all of this, and you're trying to be solution oriented and supportive. So I have two big questions for you here. Dr. Fatima, I want you to talk specifically about the burnout rate with teachers from high need school because we kind of talked about overall the burnout rate, we were giving some statistics, but especially those who are at high need school. And then there's a second question to this. And I know you'll spend some time on this, we know that this problem exists, right? We know that it's here, why aren't we being more solution oriented? Why aren't we doing something about it, it's expensive to lose a teacher teacher retention can be expensive financially to the school and is detrimental to the students every time a teacher leaves. So if we know these problems exist, teachers are low maintenance. And it doesn't take a lot to make teachers happy. So we know these problems. This, why aren't we doing something about? I know two big questions, I'm sorry. That

Kerry Klima: 13:02

will and I want to I want to just make sure that I know that there's probably people listening who know much more about the k-12 called burnout. So forgive me on my stretch of my knowing. But when I think of just the certain areas, even in higher education, who are serving historically underrepresented, historically underserved areas, like we are grinding, right, we are constantly moving and putting in place a lot of structures and support to try to really address and meet the need of the student and really meet them and be prepared for what they need. And I think that is tied to my second idea of we think I think we need to reimagine how we're approaching things, right? I think I'm laughing at my friends who they're working their tails off to make sure they get the PTA food for the teacher, right, we're relying on the families and the PTA to make sure they're feeding our teachers, because that's a motivator. And I think when you're talking about your last the last question, I think, is that the best way? Is that what's really helping the teacher feel valued, and I think it maybe is, so my assessment hat says we really need to study what teachers need or what educators need. Because I think we make a lot of assumptions. And I think as administrators, it's extremely difficult I feel at the same time because we almost need to be really reconfiguring the structure and that takes a lot of time and a lot of buy in. And so then where is that time coming from? Right? We're talking about feeling overloaded, overworked. Now I'm coaching basketball and serving as a barber and teaching and going to this our meeting every week because we need to reconfigure something I do believe we have this opportunity to think about what is it that we're doing and just doing a lot of things isn't always the best answer. So how are we doing something I think matters, how are we best configuring it? That takes time and I think it's it's hard to actually sit there and center that. I think we need to go out for external funding. We need to write grants, we need to find space we need to pay people to do that work that we can then work as a community to really think of What does our community needs? What is this school situated this community need? And how can we imagine this work? I think we just have to ask people what they think do.

Amy Vujaklija: 15:09

People will express what they want. It's not necessarily the people who need the most who are having their voices heard. We do invite people to represent different segments. We may be faculty, staff, students administration, but when we're thinking about grant writing, and we're thinking about asking people what they want, when we look around the table, we might often see those same people because they're visible, they have made their voices heard. What do you suggest to people who have not yet been invited to these important conversations, but really want to be a part of them? Yeah,

Kerry Klima: 15:51

I'm laughing because I say that all the time. It's like, we leave one Zoom meeting, we all just log on to the next zoom link, but we're all the same people. And we're talking about the same things. I think there's two pieces to this, I think, one, we have to have multiple forms and avenues and layers of contribution. It can't just be this one group in the room making decisions, asking a question one time and then bringing it back to the group. So to me, I think this is where leadership comes in. If I'm a leader, I have built up trust within the group that I work with, I've spent time to create that dynamic opportunity where someone feels hopefully comfortable to share with me, and then I'm able to receive that information and share that I think that's one piece. But it's also that I've maybe created trust to where they feel comfortable to also share in the anonymous survey, or they feel comfortable to share in the focus group. So I think we need to be pulling data from multiple areas, and from multiple points to ensure those wishes are included. And we also need to analyze who isn't there. And what was happening. That wasn't happening in the room. I said this at a assessment conference a long time ago. Yeah, the approach isn't just to have representation on the committees, because we also have to talk about power. So when I was a staff member serving on a committee, and there's all these faculty around the room, but oh, it's represented because the staff members there, but I never said a word for an entire year. That's also not okay. But we'll say as a leader, but we have representation there. But if the person never felt comfortable to speak, maybe or didn't feel included, like the staff member wasn't in the right, they're not really supposed to say anything like these unwritten experiences that people may feel. And I think that's important for our identities and individuals of color and women and you know, who are in these spaces? And are we paying attention to those dynamics. So, to me, I think it's leadership, we have to be looking for those things, I think we need to have multiple opportunities for people to engage. But again, that takes very much real intentionality, to make sure that all that's considered

Joi Patterson: 17:49

Professor Klima reflect just the moment on what we've learned from the past year and a half going through this pandemic. I mean, it'll be two years so that we're in a pandemic, who would have thought that have you seen representation as being better as a result of the pandemic? So talk about the impact of that, what's different about these last two years?

Kerry Klima: 18:13

I think it's so layered, I'm going back to my history class of where, you know, higher education and education has been the place for challenge right? And, and protest and thinking about our structures and systems, in my mind is instantly go into the Black Lives Matter movement, right, which started years ago, yet, like a year and a half ago, it really became a true national conversation. And there was this accountability on many campuses, where it said, your union to listen, we've been saying this for decades. And we've been saying this a lot. And this is important that we need to be thinking. So I think that we've learned in the last year and a half that we really have to rethink some structures for racial inequalities, that we have the centering of whiteness on our campuses that really lend to anti black, anti Asian, and we have structures that have been in place for so long that we have to really tackle that also connects to this work life mental health piece, where if we continue to operate the way that we have, we're going to forget that we're humans, the great thing that came out of the pandemic was, like I say this in this giant caveat, because there's just so much grief. But the one good thing was that I think we saw people as people, we recognize that you are a person, you're a mother, you're a caregiver, and you get to be that person on this zoom screen. And don't feel like you have to have your kid by it in the corner, or even just the animals, right? We've talked about how nice it is to see people's animals like it's we're humans, and I think so much at work is made to feel like I can't bring all of me with me. I think it's just this learning of paying attention that we're human and we need to think about the structures that really should be supporting us as humans

Joi Patterson: 19:59

and specifically in higher education, where we have more opportunities to work differently, I, for one, do not want things to go back to its old normal, as I look around. I'm working from home today, because I've decided I could be more productive today at home because of the number of meetings that I have. And if I'm going to be on the zoom all day, it should be in a quiet space of my home instead of the rudeness of my office with my door closed all day. You know, Dr. Amy is working from home today, because this is where she could be most productive. So I'm hoping that employers look at us as people and productivity and our mental health very differently and not go back to the old normal.

Amy Vujaklija: 20:50

I like what you're saying here. But it also has these legal ramifications when we're talking about unionized schools, universities, k 12. Districts. What about this language in contract conversations? How are we addressing these negotiations to solidify these changes in structures? Which is something maybe we haven't been thinking about when we think about mental? Well, you know, well being and mindfulness? Are we really putting that language in the contract?

Kerry Klima: 21:27

Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think when I worked on a dissertation, that was one thing that came up from a lot of the participants was, Why do I have to be here eight to five, when I'm also working on a program late at night. And so why am I in the opposite eight, when I was on campus to higher ed is a bit more flexible, right? That's not going to work for K 12. The teacher has to be teaching in the time in class, but you can get high res in this example. Do we need to have job descriptions that say eight to five? Or can they say contractually eight hours, and we get to work with you like, that's the kind of the piece that I think, and I haven't been a part of the bargaining table to be talking about contracts. But I think there's some opportunities to just think about how we're, we're utilizing language but still meets the needs for that group and that bargaining unit and meets the needs for the flexibility and autonomy at times. Right. And so I think that's one example, how are we doing that, and I think, this peace of the pandemic, and because of the state, and because of you stay at home orders, we were able to make some intermittent changes to express that. And now, I think we'd be groups are kind of reentering these conversations. Okay, what does this mean now? And I think that's going to be key that we kind of don't just go to the language we have, because it's hard. We need to push through what because it's hard and really think about how that language works. And to your point earlier, we need to ask people, right, how would a manager then interpret that contract? How would an administrator read that? How could that be flexible? If I'm an employee applying? What are your thoughts on that we I think we need to see feedback and take time this it's like revolutionary evolutionary leadership, we need to be revolutionary, and really quickly adapt and make change their processes. And we'll stay at home orders. We have this opportunity to be a bit more evolutionary now to really think about what this can look like more sustained without just trying to get to these negotiations quickly and get the language finalized. And I say that knowing how long this takes generally and something slow it down more, but I think we need to be intentional about that conversation.

Joi Patterson: 23:30

We are talking to Dr. Kerry Klima. She is a professor from California State University. And we're talking about a difficult subject this morning. We're talking about teacher burnout, and we're talking about at a different level, higher ed and Pete Well, why it exists, and what are some solutions. So we're going to talk about in this part, maybe some more solutions for teacher burnout. I was talking before and you were just talking about some flexibilities. And I felt guilty and had to make some decisions when I received that email saying, Oh, it's time to come back to the office and you're given that date. And it caused me to have a little bit of anxiety. I've always exercise and you know, my exercise routine, I plan for three days. And that turned into two days and sometimes one day because work became a priority, right? And so during the pandemic because I wasn't traveling, I captured that extra time and turn that into morning exercise every morning. And I'm one of those people to get to work at seven o'clock in the morning so that I can get a lot done before other people arrive. So I had a decision to me and I said I can continue exercising every morning and get to work at eight or or I can stop exercising and continue my old routine of the last 25 years of getting there and seven every morning. So what do I do? And I really had to ponder that Dr. Klima. And one of the things that I decided to do is to stay home that extra hour, I oftentimes feel guilty. So I find myself working around the clock when I can, and maybe doing some things on the weekend, which I don't necessarily think is healthy. But I wanted to strike a balance for myself, and start my day with me in mind first, so that I have the energy and the space to think about everything else after that exercise. So just want your thoughts on how we can maintain some of that healthy balance and flexibility that we had during the pandemic, such as exercise,

Kerry Klima: 25:52

I think we have to approach it with multiple layers. One, I think we as colleagues, as peers, as friends need to be helping one another out. So one of my findings from my research was that relationships matter. So we need people in our circle to kind of continue to encourage the boundary reset, whatever that may be. And we need someone to also encourage us to say that we may need to renegotiate that, right? I love structure. I love it. Your point. I love that I know that. And and maybe three weeks in I am finding that's not working. So it's helpful to have someone else in my life, that's encouraging to say, you don't have to do that. You get to make a decision. So where do we have decision points that we have maybe let other people influence is I think he and so I think our folks, I think also administrators and supervisors, we need to be building that into our conversation. So one of the things that I talk about with my team all the time, as you may see my emails coming in at x time of night, but know that I'm doing X, Y, and Z to also care for myself. And in our one on ones. It's Hey, how's it been going for you? What do you need, how let's talk through some strategies of what that looks like. It's that leadership piece, I think, to where we're creating that space for conversation. But we also as administrators, observers have to model it. So if I'm sending emails every night, every morning, every weekend, that's sending a message to my team and my group that I'm working all the time. And this is that, like, that's not the tone I want to send, right. And so it's checking in on how they're doing and what are these other things? Or how has it been going or we even started just a half hour, once a week where let's if you're available, it's the walk together on campus. So just this encouraging of one another, I think you're doing I think you have to create this space for renegotiating those. And so I think we need people in our lives to help us remind us that we can renegotiate those think about what we mean.

Joi Patterson: 27:48

Absolutely, you know, I left the university that I was at for 17 years in an administrative position. And I worked anywhere from 12 to 15 hours a day. And I did that for 17 years. And like you said, I was responding to emails and sending out emails seven days a week around the clock. And so people think you're always on? Yep, I would get to work really early, they discover that you get to work really early. So if they want to talk to you get to work really early. Yep. So you didn't you know, that time that you thought was protected is no longer protected. And after that, I just said, I need to change. So I came to Governors State University, and I got my life back. I still work hard, because that's my work ethic. I have this 10 hour rule for myself. But that's my work ethic. It's not something that Governors State University imposed on me, I made that shift to Governor State University, they support that. And I have a structure that allows me to get done what I have to get done within a reasonable timeframe. And sometimes we have to do that we have to put ourselves first I didn't know what I was missing. If you're not present, you don't even know what you're missing. So I didn't know what I was missing, especially for people who have young children. You don't know what you're missing when you're not there. And so if we could structure our day, our time where we're more present in our own lives, I think that really helps us turn the light on and we can be more energetic we can be more thoughtful we can all of those

Kerry Klima: 29:30

thing that if we're working like that we're tired that leads to poor like right we know we need to take those breaks we need to rejuvenate because that's going to actually like that's that's the investment man's the institution of the organization. It's great for them if we're in a better place, mentally and being well, I argue to at the same time, we shouldn't just be doing that because we're nice and good humans, right. So it's it's your point, it's a cost savings on the group's part by not losing employees by keeping them well right at home. helps in that bottom budget line. But I also think we have this opportunity is just to be good stewards of people. Like

Amy Vujaklija: 30:07

Governors State University, the Elementary Education Program has implemented a mindfulness class focused on helping future teachers implement mindfulness practices in their classrooms. But I want to switch this up a little bit. What would you suggest a mindfulness class would look like for teachers? What strategies have you learned to address the burnout? Or to keep it from happening?

Kerry Klima: 30:38

Yeah, I mean, we, we have led meetings where we start and I think there's there's opportunities where you likely have someone on your campus or at your school or in your district who has training like we in higher ed, we often have someone on our campus. So we bring in those experts that are health educators, and they come in and they leave mindfulness exercises, I've started meetings where we turn off our zoom world, this is a benefit, we turn off our camera, and we do five minutes of stretching. Because it's just been long, we're sitting there, like, let's just pause. And that's going to help us be a bit more calm before we enter this meeting where we can talk about the budget. So I think we can embed it into the meetings, I think your point is embedded in the curriculum, if we can work and kind of fix these generational things, right? Like if we start doing that now. And we put that in, our teachers are used to it and then the next generation, like it's a part of their practice, and think about those kiddos that are learning mindfulness early as a strategy, they're going to now be our teachers, were creating this great pipeline of centering wellness and mindfulness, and that you as a person and as a human physically and mentally matter. Let's keep that idea. But it's sometimes it just takes a little bit of time generationally to kind of bring that in. But again, we're talking about mental health more than we ever have. We shied away from it, it was a piece of concern, our students are entering higher education, very comfortable, many times sharing that they have a mental health rights condition or concern that they're having to navigate. So we're going to see this push I think up where we're going to be able to talk about it more openly. And it helps to then navigate the boundary setting that we were talking about, if we're talking about what I need, maybe for my mental and physical well being. So

Joi Patterson: 32:17

you really helped me out tomorrow morning, Dr. Amy and I will be in departmental meetings, college meetings for a very long length of time in the morning. So I think what right away one of the things we'll implement is some time, a braid, let's do some stretching. Let's take a little mindfulness break. Let's take a little yoga, let's talk about something light. And that's some of the things that's one of the things that we've been doing prior to meetings, as people jump on having light conversation, let's not talk about the job, let's talk about your family. Let's talk about your dog, let's talk about that birthday party went to those things to make it really light so people can breathe. So this has been fascinating for me, as much as we know about teacher burnout, this is still one of the largest field that we have in the world, we have a big job of educating our future. So with that, we're going to have challenges. It's a heavy load on your shoulder, it's a lot of responsibility. So there's going to be some burnout. So I think the fact that we know that going in, and we can practice some of the strategies that you address and really address our mental health will make this career along last lasting, prosperous, happier career. And also, I should add that you should stay out of the teacher's lounge.

Kerry Klima: 33:47

Yeah, and I think there's the layers to right, there's the surface, here's that strategy I can do to help me right now. And then I think our folks who are leaders and administrators, we need to be prioritizing and shift our structures, right, it shouldn't be on the employee to have to manage everything, we should be kind of creating that space in our processes and our procedures in our practice that really helps to elevate to make it an okay space for the teacher, the educator to center what they need for their wellness.

Amy Vujaklija: 34:16

I appreciate these now strategies and things to consider for changing the structures. And like how you have talked about multiple voices at the table, and how do we create an environment that is conducive to best practices of teaching and well being? Yeah,

Kerry Klima: 34:38

thank you for the conversation. I think just being able to talk about it and share and get people thinking is such an important piece. So we'll keep this conversation going everywhere. Thank you.

Amy Vujaklija: 34:50

Thank you for listening to teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joy visit our website @ govst.com EDU slash teaching and leading podcast to see the show notes from this episode. We

Joi Patterson: 35:08

appreciate Governor State University's work behind the scenes to make publishing possible. Stay tuned for more episodes with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi