Reboot: Being Culturally Responsive in Teaching and Leading with Dr. Marlon Cummings

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

students, cultural responsiveness, teacher, leaders, educators, classroom, culturally responsive, mentoring, space, culturally responsive teaching, teaching, leadership, education, conversations, good,, culture, dealing, Illinois

SPEAKERS

Amy Vujaklija, Marlon Cummings, Joi Patterson

Marlon Cummings: 00:02

Do I support each of those students? Not the 25 and the five but the 30. Right? And how do I look at each individual student and figure out what they need to support them.

Amy Vujaklija: 00:13

This episode was originally released under the podcast titled teaching and learning, theory versus practice. This rebooted episode has been migrated to teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi. I am Dr. Amy Vujaklija, Director of educator preparation.

Joi Patterson: 00:33

And I am Dr. Joi Patterson, Chief Diversity Officer. Our podcast addresses issues through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow as educators. So join us on our journey to become better teachers and leaders. So let's get into it.

Amy Vujaklija: 00:56

Good morning, Dr. Joi.

Joi Patterson: 00:58

Good morning. Dr. Amy, how are you today?

Amy Vujaklija: 01:02

I'm doing really well. This is a great opportunity for us to talk to one of our colleagues.

Joi Patterson: 01:09

I'm excited. We're glad to have Dr. Marlin Cummings. Today. He runs interdisciplinary leadership for superintendent program.

Amy Vujaklija: 01:18

Well, he has a lot of experience both in middle school and in public administration. So Dr. Cummings career in education began in Washington, DC, where he taught middle school science and math. And then while he was teaching, he was pursuing his Master's in Public Administration with an emphasis in education policy. So after he was teaching, he worked for two years as the director of programs of a national nonprofit organization that focused on addressing issues of adolescent bullying and harassment for students in grades three through 12. When he returned to Illinois, he worked for over eight years as a principal consultant with the Illinois State Board of Education. It was during this time he began working on his PhD. And he spent over seven years instructing and mentoring educators earning graduate degrees in education, administration and teaching. Immediately prior to joining us at GSU. He spent time working to promote equity in public education policy in Illinois as an employee with advanced Illinois. Equity should be his middle name.

Joi Patterson: 02:31

Yes, I am so excited about having him. I think, first of all, that you and I have this affinity to people who are middle school teachers. I think that makes us all special. So it's great that he has that background in the schools, but he also have the strong advocacy background that makes him so unique and great at what he does. And then of course, there's this natural way that he has this just organic way of mentoring the man around him. So I'm excited about talking to Dr. Marlin Cummings this morning.

Amy Vujaklija: 03:06

Yes, welcome.

Marlon Cummings: 03:07

Good morning.

Joi Patterson: 03:08

Good morning, Dr. Cummings. How are you?

Marlon Cummings: 03:11

I'm doing very well.

Amy Vujaklija: 03:12

You know, we wanted to talk to you about your passions, I know that you and I have worked together presenting at conferences, culturally responsive pedagogy, and what that looks like in the practical applications. So tell us more about your passions. Now, what are you researching and writing?

Marlon Cummings: 03:31

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I think I remember when I originally got into my doctoral program, I was I really cared about organizations and the culture within organizations and ultimately got away from that, because I had done a lot of work in it prior to my dissertation and just got tired of it. But it was really where the heart and the passion of what I do lies. And it's really about how do we improve and organizations, and really looking at that from a leadership standpoint, and leaders are critical, and the success of organizations and I think as organizations began to diversify, it's really important that we have culturally responsive leaders. And so it's been a lot of time doing some research and cultural responsive pedagogy and really wanted to take that and use it and think about it in terms of culturally responsive leadership. They're out there lots of authors already doing their work. But I think that I wonder to try to add to, to what I've seen and try to support the people that I work with by doing research in that area.

Joi Patterson: 04:28

So happy that you're talking about culturally responsive teaching, because you have so much experience that we're wondering, what are the topics that we're going to talk about what Dr. Cummings, you know, we can go this way we can go that way. So let's just stay on culturally responsive teaching for a while. And for me, there's so much about culturally responsive teaching is about how you feel about your students, right? And how you feel about people and wanting the absolute best for your students as you would for your own children. When I think about that, that just innate ability to do that? How can one actually learn to be culturally responsive?

Marlon Cummings: 05:06

It's a good question. I think actually, one of the foundations of quality responsiveness is really about understanding self, and owning what you bring to any classroom situation organization experience. And I think when we first can be self reflective and know what it is that we bring, what are the things in our past that hurt us? What are the things in our past that make us happy? What are the places and spaces that challenge us and recognize that own it and then use that to move forward and and really think about your students, but it's tough to have empathy for others when you don't really have take stock in yourself. And I think it's really important for us as educators to know like come in with may be having a tough time at home personal issues at home, well, I got a kid that's not sleeping, I got all these things that are going on. But why didn't have a tough background and dealing with the death of a parent, that was terrible to me. And so you're not dealing with that. But that doesn't matter, because I'm coming into a classroom filled with 35th graders or sixth graders, that are looking to learn from me that are excited about learning, and I have to own what I'm bringing into it and somehow realize that, how to use that and not ignore, but use it to, to help support my own students and to have empathy for them. Because they are all coming in with their own stuff, too. And so it as the educated, we have to be the ones to recognize our own thing so that we can then be in a position to support our students that come into our classroom.

Joi Patterson: 06:32

I like that.

Amy Vujaklija: 06:34

Yeah. And you're in educator preparation. When you're training when you're preparing these future educators? What do you tell them about what cultural responsiveness looks like? How do we know when it's there, and when it's not there.

Marlon Cummings: 06:51

So I think that one of the things that we have to do is really focus on equity. I think cultural responsiveness is kind of rooted in equity. And so thinking about I have these five students in my classroom, and they are they all are in desperate need of help, right? But they may not all be in the need of the same type of help. And then I have the other 25, that are on some other range of academic success. And so I had to think about how do I support each of those students? Not the 25 and the five, but the 30. Right? And how do I look at each individual student and figure out what they need to support them. Not sure they're going to be opportunities for me to group students and to not have to deal with every single thing. But I think it's important that in a classroom where the teacher understands that students, they know them, they know things about them, they can connect with them, they can recognize when a student is having a bad day, you can come into a classroom. And I would think that like if I'm watching the teacher coming in, as a student are coming in, when school first starts, the teacher is talking to them, they know their names, they can tell when a student's having a tough time. They know when the kids coming in, and they're hungry, just because they are in tune with their students. They are recognized they are paying attention to who they are and not looking at them as a black girl, Brown Girl, girl, boy, whatever, low achiever high achiever, but I see you as as Tommy with that has a parent that works late nights. And so you get school late, but it's not because the parent doesn't care, but it's just because they work. And so they get you to school late, sometimes you miss breakfast, I got a granola bar on my desk. To me, that's cultural responsiveness. That's the idea that I'm going to, I understand that there's some need there because I gotta I have to meet that need, and have to recognize that talents before I can get you to learn algebra, I care about science, or one of our agreements.

Joi Patterson: 08:33

Immediately, I put some of those things in practice when I became a teacher, and I never knew anything about culturally responsive teacher and it probably teaching because it probably came from some of the adversity that I had gone through. And the fact that I had children, because a big box of materials was on my list every week. So every week, I brought a big box of materials into class, because I knew that many of my students were hungry, and I wasn't going to be able to teach or they weren't able, they weren't going to be able to learn unless they were fed. So I always had a big box of Cheerios on the side, something that I could afford. So it made a huge difference. Another thing that I learned really early when I was teaching, I had all Latino children, and they were recently from Mexico or Guatemala, and then trying to understand that dynamic. And I wasn't getting homework back on Thursdays. I just was not. And so realize that, oh, they weren't going to church. Many of them were practicing Catholics. They were at church on Wednesday night. So it's like, okay, why am I forcing them to do homework on Wednesday night? I want them to do homework five days a week, if that's my thing. Well, I could just change that to Friday night instead of Wednesday night. So making those adjustments so that they could be successful. We've been talking lately about integrating culturally responsive teaching standards in the curriculum at GSU. You know, Illinois is doing this So we're integrating it at GSU. And my first reaction to that was really, it's about time. But my second reaction was like, Oh, great. And I'm sure you felt that way too. What would you imagine some of those impacts? Once we integrate CRT into our curriculum?

Marlon Cummings: 10:19

Well, I think you're going to have teachers that are coming out with a different focus and thinking about education and where they want to be educated differently. It honestly, we probably will scare some people away from difficult challenges, because you will realize that what you will, you will understand what you're going to be walking into. But it's also going to help students that get in a situation that where they don't didn't realize cultural responsiveness will be needed. And so I'll give you a quick example. So for example, maybe I'm a, I'm a white teacher, and I'm going into moderately affluent school district to be a teacher. And I am dealing with some issues where students are getting bullied, right. And it's, it has nothing to do with race or culture, it has a lot to do with Megan's economics. And it has something to do with a kid that's being bullied because of their economic status. And I think a lot of times when we think about cultural responsiveness, we often go to race and culture. But I think that what we're gonna find as teachers, they're going to be equipped to deal with a lot of different types of situations that don't aren't just dealing with race or culture, but gender, and economics, and social mobility and religion. And even I mean, I feel like now even politics, right? These are things that if you are armed with cultural responsive, and you understand that there are nuances within any classroom or any society, and so you are more equipped to deal with that and not be overly challenged by those situations and to have some tools to confront those difficult situations.

Amy Vujaklija: 11:48

You're talking about arming teacher educators and, and them having these tools? What types of resources do you need to sustain the work of training educators in culturally responsive practices?

Marlon Cummings: 12:02

That's a great question, Dr. V, I think, you know, I really think it's going to take and this is why this is why I've really been adamant about integrating more cultural, cultural responsiveness in my leadership programs, just because, you know, it starts with leadership, you know, you got to have school leaders that are infusing it into teacher development days, or at the beginning of the year, when you're doing those Institute days, and you're training, you're working on curriculum, we need to spend some time talking about what does this mean, and what does this practice mean, and then have an open and honest conversations about it, both in our staff meetings and our grade level meetings. And it doesn't, it shouldn't be something that we do at the beginning of the year, and then go and do it. And then we do it again, at the beginning of every year, and we don't really talk about it, we need to have conversations about it. And again, that has to be that has to start from the top. So I think providing teachers with professional development, ongoing, like at the beginning of the year at checkpoints, maybe after each quarter at the end of semester break, checking in about the challenges that they're facing, and having opportunity and space to talk about. And I think some of that is just that, right? There's this issue that I've been reading a lot about around secondary trauma for educators. So it's this idea that I am pouring into my students and I have and I want my students to succeed, and I'm taking in all of their stuff, because I want to help them. But the fact is, I can't help all of them, I can maybe help 20, 30, 40, 50, 70%. But I just, I can't get to 100%. And so then I began to take on some of that stuff. And so I think an important part of maintaining teacher's ability to be not only culturally responsive, but do it with with the passion that they've always done it with is to continue to have that follow up and conversations and dialogue and continue with training on it. I don't think it's something where you do at one time and it goes away you you have to continue to have conversations about it.

Joi Patterson: 13:53

And you mentioned that some teachers this was interesting that some teachers or teacher candidates will make a decision not to go to a certain school district, right, based on their disposition and or how they embrace culturally responsive teaching. And that's not a bad thing. That's a good thing. That's part of knowing yourself and being honest with yourself, and they may want to go to a school that where they feel comfortable with more uniform, because otherwise, that's where we experienced the challenge with teacher retention, right, where there's a poor match of the teacher, and the demographics of that school or the mission of that school. So what would you say some of the greatest challenges of making culturally responsive programs successful?

Marlon Cummings: 14:35

So right is that by and that really is the decking get cultural responsiveness to really stick and I think that happens again, through a school leader saying, Look, this is something that we're committed to because we see not only kind of support our students, but as you were just mentioning before, it can be a really big boost for retention because I have some ability to know how to manage this difficult situation know How to manage this challenging classroom. And so I think one of the things is providing professional development and getting that buy in from teachers, and then having some stick to itiveness. I think I think oftentimes, when education we, we do something, and when we don't see an immediate result, we like, let's try something else up, let's try something else. And every year, we're trying something new as instead of saying, we're gonna do this, we're gonna have a plan, and we're gonna stick to it, and let the intermitted the slow progress happen, and watch it and give it time to mature and to match. Right. And I think that I think that's one of the things that we have to continue to work on buying PD and let them match it.

15:41

Okay,

Joi Patterson: 15:41

Okay, so sticking with leadership for just a moment, we know that there's a huge disparity with minorities and boys being suspended and placed in special education. I mean, there's a huge disparity. And we know that change starts at the top. So what do leaders need to do to make this change?

Marlon Cummings: 16:02

The way I kind of think about this process for leaders is one is they have to first be introduced to this idea of cultural responsiveness. And then they need to deal with there. Again, I think it always begins with us as an educator, like dealing with what we bring to a situation, our background, I have all of the cultures that we bring into a space and recognizing that and being competent, and in just owning who you are. From there, I think it's about then building it into your school culture, right. And I think that that is something and it has to be purposeful. It can't be something that's on the side, right? I'm going to do professional development. We're going to talk about it in class, we're going to talk about it and all staff meeting, I'm going to have you infuse it into social studies, or we're going to have a period where it's just like like homeroom, right, I'm gonna have homeroom or we're gonna talk about these things. Every day in homeroom, maybe 10 minutes or so we're gonna talk about some challenges, and how to be something where it's within the school, that also means that I need my security guard to be trained, I need my cafeteria workers, I need my custodians, right, because I want that, that cafeteria worker there when that kid comes in 20 minutes late, 10 minutes past the bell, and they're hungry, I know that the cafeteria is closed, but you give them a granola bar, and you send them to class because you know that they're hungry, because what will happen is, and I've seen it happen, that kid doesn't get fed, then they come in the classroom, and then they wreck shop, they just tear it up, because not because they're having a bad day because they're just hungry, right. And so thinking about and had making sure that not just my teachers, not just myself, but my staff, all of the students, not just the students that are challenged in school, but even the students that are my my high fliers, I want them to be thoughtful and being culturally responsive, right. And I want everybody to buy into this idea of how we can work together and live in the space and be thoughtful and empathetic towards one another,

Amy Vujaklija: 17:55

Buy-in is so important. Whenever you're talking about staff and faculty and the teachers describe the need for leaders, particularly leaders who are culturally responsive, or use culturally responsive pedagogy in their practices. So many initiatives start from the top. What about the need for leaders?

Marlon Cummings: 18:17

Yeah, I mean, again, I think that we'll just as we're trying to do it in future programs, we need to do it and I and our principals, and our superintendent prep, we need to help them to understand that this is an important part of what what you go into what you're jumping into, particularly in Illinois, right? When you look at Chicago, in the collar counties, I mean, the demographic shifts are there, I have many students that do their research on this challenge that teachers are facing, and doing this demographic and looking at this demographic shift and trying to figure out how to deal with it. So I think that, as a leader, I need to understand that this is these are the school districts that I'm walking into, I'm not walking into a space where it's, you know, mostly one race, and then just a little bit of another or mostly one language and a little bit enough, maybe walking into a district that was traditionally all white, or traditionally all black and now has Arab students or has Asian students, and they are speaking those languages. And then those students and their parents have particular culture and how do those parents and coaches engage education, educational spaces, and I have to be thoughtful and aware of that. So I think it's critical for for leaders to do it. Because I mean, even if I if I as a teacher, and putting that in my school and put I'm putting that in my classroom and all the schools and to the students that I work with, if my neighbors on my right and my left aren't doing it, and I'm in a middle school, when they're jumping from class to class, it's like the walking into different environments. So it's not they're not getting, they're getting a little bit of it, they're getting a taste of it, but they're not in that environment. And only way they can do that is by the school leader making it something that that they make it a part of their vision for the school. And the thing is, and one thing I talked to my leaders about is when I say buy it, I don't mean 100% Right, because it's just not I got to get 100% What I needed is a critical mass, I need that tidal wave to just say, hey, look, this is what we're doing. And either you're gonna go along, you're gonna get swept up in the tidal wave, or maybe we'll Good luck to you on your next your next row, right, and my administrators about this, build a team that will buy into your vision for your school and your vision for your school, whatever it may be, has to have some element of cultural responsiveness to it.

Joi Patterson: 20:24

I love it. Arshay Cooper, I don't know if you know, Arshay Cooper, but he grew up on the west side. And he is the author of a most beautiful thing. This is a book is about the first black rowing team. And if you can imagine that taking place on the west side of Chicago, and he talks about how instrumental his principal was and making sure their team was successful, because they had to stay at school late, or they had to go to school early. And in their neighborhood, there was no safe passage. I mean, if you weren't walking with other students, you are basically I mean, you're dead meat. And so her having that wherewithal to say, Okay, I need a special bus to go pick them up, or I need to create a situation by which they can get to school safely. So they can be successful in their sport, just having that wherewithal of what that particular student needs in order to be successful. And like you said, Those needs are different for every student in your classroom. I was wondering if you had any success stories that you could share with us? Because I like his story. So I wanted to hear personally from you. Have you had any success stories that you could share with us?

Marlon Cummings: 21:38

A good question. So I think I've had a few, some at different stages, when I just give a few very short ones. So that I think that when I was teaching middle school, it's hard my second year teaching. And what I realized is that students were coming into my classroom after lunch, this particular group of seventh grade, which they are nightmares, seventh graders are terrible, I love them, they would just be chaos, it would just be complete chaos. And people will be talking and buzzing and all this stuff. And what I realized is what I would take, I started to take five minutes at the beginning of my class, and it would just be totally like socialized, I would just sit in front of the classroom, I'm like, what's going on? Tell me about what happened with someone who was fighting this person, someone. So it was this person, someone so like this and all these things, right. And it was an opportunity for them to get all this stuff out. And they were buzzing, and I wouldn't let them talk across the classroom, all this stuff, we would have five minutes. Let's get it out, right. And then we could get back to the classroom. And so for me, for me, that was one thing that I felt like I was like, very thoughtful in terms of like, you know what, I'm not going to be able to get to what I want to get to until they get to what they want to get to. So it was that kind of recognizing what my students needed in that moment. And we would do it every day. And some days, they didn't even really need it. They just wanted to get to work, right. But there were those days when it was buzzing. And I left space for that. And so it's just that that idea that why education is important. They're not going to be thinking about that until they can talk about this other stuff, right? Another time was after teaching, I went into doing bullying, harassment training for teachers. And the one thing that I think was a real win for me is helping students to understand it really wasn't really student that was really administered, I think it was really the administrator that in the space, it didn't matter if you were in an afluent area, or low income area, or high needs area or a parochial you know, like religious base, and any of these, like you can do this work, right? This is something that we can recognize and be thoughtful about the need for students to have space to have conversations about difficult things. And for us as educators to really listen to allow what they're saying to have, like, let that be their truth, and then help them to move from where they are to where we want them to be. So I think that oftentimes in urban areas, I think you mentioned on it a little bit where all the focus was just on classroom management, I could we never got to the learning. And so helping educators to know that like this is like you need to make space for us for dialogue between for me to get to know a student for us to like for me to let a student have a bad day or for us to you know what, on Thursday, I didn't get a lot done because we were having we needed to get through some other things that the students were dealing with. Right? And from there, then we were able to move forward. And I think and using this what administrators realizes that I'm really able to connect with my my students or my parents, when I'm making space to under really learn about my students are not who they are. And so to me, those are two areas where I just felt like I really felt good about the work that I was doing. And I guess one other example is and I've talked about this before, but like I was teaching a class when I was a graduate student, and it was a student he was it was a white male, and he came up to me after class and he was talking about, he didn't understand we were talking about race and culture, you know, in society and education. And he was didn't get he was like Dr. Cummings. I wasn't Dr. then, you know, Professor, I'm not a uhh, I don't get this. I'm not racist. That's not who I am. I don't approach things like that I don't understand like, I'm normal white guy. And I know what happens privilege, but that's not who I am. And for me, it was telling, talking to having that conversation about this idea that some of this is broken down and person to person, right. It's not this thing where somebody is going to make a speech on TV, and everybody's gonna feel different about race and culture, and ethnicity and religion and all this stuff. It's going to be like this, somebody turning on this podcast, and listen, and Sam, and I didn't think about that, or me, presenting it in class and switching on that light switch and saying, Hi, I didn't see it from that perspective, right? And beginning to turn the tide there. And I feel that, to me, that one interaction helped me to see that, like, I can make changes, and it may not be this broad chain, but in those one on one interactions in my interactions with my students, and then their interaction with the people who they encounter. That's where I can really have the impact. So

Amy Vujaklija: 26:10

I really like what you're saying about listening and seeing the person. What are some qualities of being a thoughtful leader in an organization? So if you were to boil it down to a set of characteristics, what would those be?

Marlon Cummings: 26:26

One, I think, I think two big ones. Again, I'm kind of beating the dead horse a little bit, but self awareness, recognizing who I am as a leader, where my strengths, my weaknesses are, where do I need to build isn't anything? What do I need to be on my team? I'm not good at this. I need somebody to help me with that, right? I'm not I don't do good with discipline, because somebody discovers, oh, I'm not good with finance. So self awareness, but also individual consideration. So it's this idea that I am considering my individual teachers, my staff, my students, the families that I'm dealing with the culture and my sphere. So I think leaders that can do those two things like I know who I am, and I'm thoughtful about the individuals within my space, those tend to have places that that thrive, right. And I think I mean, also when you need to have some organization, as well, I think those two things if I want to build culture, responsive environment, is those two big things that really are the drivers to create those types of spaces.

27:22

I

Amy Vujaklija: 27:22

I know you've done some mentoring, we've talked about that in the past, or maybe it's informal. But how does mentoring play a role in someone's development as a professional, especially in aspiring leader,

Marlon Cummings: 27:35

so in teaching, like, I've been having a lot of these conversations, because my, my students are on leadership theory class. And so a lot of my students are in this space, right. And I think that we bring in folks to our program that are already leaders, right, you can have this kind of ability, where you either kind of have an ability to be a leader, or you've had experiences that have put you in leadership roles. But what I think is that leaders really need extra support, they need one, they need theory, right? So they need to read or get some type of development. But they also need coaching somebody that can help them to see their blind spots, to help them to realize what they're good at what they're not helping to develop abilities that they didn't realize that they needed. And I think that as a leader, we can't do this on our own. We need people to pour into us to help us to be to help us to reach our full potential. I think that mentoring plays a huge role in the ability for school leaders, teachers to be successful, right? The really great teachers, typically, they barely had a mentor teacher that was in that building. And they were like, Hey, do this and think about it in this way. Or have you thought about this or try doing this, it just helps you to really improve on what you already doing. Like I don't think like particularly a social service when we're leaders or, or workers in those spaces. We can't do this work on our own. It's not work that can be doing our own. It is designed to be done collaboratively. If you find yourself in a space where you're the leader of an organization, go out and find other people who you can collaborate with and who you can talk with and who can help you to be a better you. And I think that the mentoring is plays a huge role is key to that. And that's why I take on those mentor roles. I think they're better when they happen naturally. They don't have to be natural, I think you can seek out mentorship, you should. But usually, if you're an aspiring leader, and you're moving forward and you get trying to have some trajectory to your career, you likely have somebody in your sphere that can be your mentor just about reaching out and asking them or just harassing them and meeting with them all the time or like passing good bosses me around who tells me what to do.

Joi Patterson: 29:43

It's always organic, but you can create it but it is always best. And that's a whole nother topic for us. And that's going to be our next conversation with you about mentoring because mentoring. I mean, that's a big investment. It's an investment in human resource. Sometimes is financial resources. But there's a bigger return for that investment. Definitely Next time, we're going to talk about mentoring. I think now, Dr. Amy wants to know, what do you have on your bedside? What are you reading, but

Marlon Cummings: 30:13

but I'm reading a Focus by Mike Schmoker, I can bring him up. This is really about improving student learning, and how do we work on that? And in working with student leaders, I want to think about, you know, how do I develop them. Another book that I'm rereading, called The White Architects of Black America, it's by William Watkins, it's really just looking at this issue of the cultural race and our society. And this gives you a really good perspective on some of the challenges that we're seeing and culture and race and politics. Now. I mean, he, they just keep, they just keep coming up, right, they just keep coming up. And he talks a lot about that. And how the dominant culture has has really had an impact on black education. And then I'm also reading because it was given to me, and I'm just kind of thumbing through it The Fall of Faculty, which is the GSU book that we're reading, and really looking at this idea of an administrative takeover of higher education. And that was pretty interesting read another book that I think is really important. I want to throw out there that I think it's great, and I've been talking to my students about it is StrengthsFinder. I think it's a really good book to think about in terms of when we think about developing leaders, like thinking about where Strengths Finder looks at what are my strengths, and as opposed to focusing on the things that I'm not good at. One of the things that I'm good at, and how do I find places in spaces where I can utilize those strengths for for my own success? That's what I'm reading.

Amy Vujaklija: 31:33

Excellent. It's been great talking to you today. I'm fascinated with your work. And I'm hoping that one day in the future we can present live together, been able to in the past the closers it's kind of hard to do any traveling. So that'll be fun. And looking forward to the next conversation.

Joi Patterson: 31:55

You were outstanding, Dr. Cummings, our listeners are going to get a lot out of this.

Marlon Cummings: 31:59

I certainly hope so. And also, I'm going to be also talking about the same thing, quote from sponsibility. ship with the Illinois Principals Association, South Cook,

Joi Patterson: 32:08

a wonderful

Marlon Cummings: 32:09

group, again, on this topic as well. And that stemmed from a recent publication that I had on making the case for culturally humble leadership practices to a culturally responsive leadership framework. And so if you're looking for that, that's in human service organizations management, leadership and governance, that journal that was recently published. So just excited about this work excited to be here honored to be interviewee here.

Joi Patterson: 32:32

We're lucky to have you. We heard it here first.

Marlon Cummings: 32:35

Well, thank you so much, and I really appreciate this opportunity to be here and to share some of my experiences.

32:41

Thank

Amy Vujaklija: 32:41

Thank you for listening to teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joy. Visit our website at govst.edu/teaching and leading podcast to see the show notes from this episode.

Joi Patterson: 32:59

We appreciate Governors State University's work behind the scenes to make publishing possible. Stay tuned for more episodes with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi