Advocating for Racism-Free Schools with Dr. Candace Smith

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

conversations, work, school, students, talk, racism, people, teachers, racial harassment, happening, hate crimes, white, child, racist, kid, education, speak, standards, experiencing, uncomfortable

SPEAKERS

Joi Patterson, Candace Smith, Amy Vujaklija

Candace Smith: 00:03

It's not about having the power to save. It's about being empowered to be a voice and to have someone's back. Welcome

Amy Vujaklija: 00:12

to our podcast teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi. I am Dr. Amy Vujaklija, Director of educator preparation.

Joi Patterson: 00:23

And I am back to Joi Patterson chief diversity officer. Our podcast addresses issues through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow as educators.

Amy Vujaklija: 00:39

So join us on our journey to become better teachers and leaders. So let's get into it.

Joi Patterson: 00:50

Hi, Dr. Amy.

Amy Vujaklija: 00:52

Hello, Dr.Joi. How are you today?

Joi Patterson: 00:55

I am doing fabulous and I am ready for this conversation. I'm ready to get started.

Amy Vujaklija: 01:00

I am too. We work with such amazing people. And I love having these conversations about people's backgrounds and their research. And with Dr. Candace Smith, how that research has informed where she is now as an assistant professor at Governor State University. So let's do it. Dr. Candace Smith, as I said, is an assistant professor who works alongside us. She has been serving in education for over 20 years. She began her educational career as a pre kindergarten teacher implementing a pilot program. Prior to moving to Chicago Public Schools. She taught third grade or CPS and then third and fifth grades for 10 years in Lansing, Illinois. For three years, she served as an assistant principal at another school in the same district. In 2018 Dr. Smith art earned her EDD in educational leadership for teaching and learning from Louis University. Dr. Smith most recently served as principal at Holy Family School in North Lawndale. And she also works with schools as an educational consultant. But what I'm most happy about is that she is one of our colleagues. So welcome to our podcast, Dr. Smith.

Candace Smith: 02:33

Good afternoon.

Joi Patterson: 02:34

Oh, happy to see you. Dr. Smith, Dr. Candace. So I know today we're going to be talking about a topic that's really near and dear to you is exploring anti racist practices, which is very timely, and so we're gonna get into that later. But before we get into that, let's talk more about you because what Dr. Amy read, it was a very, you have very diverse experience. How was more about your education journey, and your scholarly work?

Candace Smith: 03:11

Okay, well, it actually began long before I received that first position. And I volunteered at a school in Cabrini Green during my college years. And I think that was the first time I actually was presented the opportunity to I open to the systemic oppression that happens in schools and the separation based in community and zip codes. So that was my first time really looking and experiencing and that particular teacher at that school really taught me a lot, we had a lot of intense conversations about why schools in Chicago looked different. And led me to reading things like Jonathan Kozol savage inequalities and religions delving into that work. And that's important because that laid the foundation. What's really important about that is that that's when my white savior ism kicked in, that I didn't realize until later on in my career. And that's important because when doing this work, it's not about saving others it's about working on yourself and having an impact around those around you, and not taking power away from other individuals. So through college, I had this dream that I was going to work my way up and CPS and I was going to change the entire system and become CEO, and everyone was going to have a fair chance and I couldn't wait to just get get in there. I had this whole plan laid out. I was going to save everyone. You know I did I did my pre K pilot at a center school and then I received my first job offer at a CPS school on the Lower East Side and teaching third grade and from the moment I was introduced that was eye opening. That that took what I learned at that those other experiences to a whole new level, the administrator there. There were, it was it was abusive relationship with the school. And I didn't understand why no one was doing anything about it. This also speaks to knowing the schools before you go on knowing the community, but also knowing the schools, I was not aware that prior to me coming 22 teachers had left. So the third grade students I had had already experienced, I believe it was six teachers by third grade. So that that in itself was this is an issue, this turnover rate, what's happening? Why are we having these discussions. And so I was there for a year. And I had planned to stay, I actually begged to be able to loop with my students, because I thought that was really important for them to know their teacher and know they were staying and I was turned down for that. And then few of my colleagues really pushed for me while it was still early enough to move on, because it gets worse every year. And that in itself is depressing. So I did leave. And what's interesting is after I let my families know, I let the students know. And I went into a suburban school and I thought there was going to be it's going to be different here. And the problems were different, but the same. So the school I began working at had recently become a title one school, or they were becoming. And a lot of the conversations I would hear between the lines were things like, you know, these great families are leaving the community. I don't know what to do with these kids coming in, everything's changing. And here's what happened. We had a change in the community, we had a high African American population coming in African population, and Hispanic population, and a lot of the white families were leaving. So these underlying conversations that were taking place, these these were bias, these were this was racism happening. And I was very surprised. The teachers had no, not all the teachers, but a lot of teachers that have been there a long time, were very upset by these changes and had no foundation for working with other diverse populations. So I was there for 10 years. And my mentor who was the principal and eventually became the superintendent, I had told her that I was feeling like I was just going to get a master's in curriculum instruction I didn't really want you know, I've given up on this whole is gonna save the world thing. And she said, No, you have important work to do. And she talked me into getting my master's in administration. And I'm still grateful to her for that. I became an assistant principal in another school in the district. And while there, that's when I was working on my doctorate and my dissertation work, and then which laid a lot of the foundation for my work when I switched to being a principal in North Lawndale. So I've had childcare settings, public private school, city suburbs experience, so definitely been in a few different locations.

Joi Patterson: 08:04

Thank thank you for going into all of that and getting to know you better. And I know Dr. Amy has a question. But before she gets to her question, I just wanted you to know that there's still time for you to run for the US presidency.

Candace Smith: 08:18

Oh, goodness, no. Let's just start. Let's start local. We got a lot of work to do. We got a lot of work to do right here.

Amy Vujaklija: 08:29

I agree. There's a lot of work to do. Okay, to set us up for the conversation that we're going to have today. Can you share a little about your dissertation research?

Candace Smith: 08:43

So, yes, absolutely. My dissertation happened while I was assistant principal. So it was also near the 2016 election. So there was a lot brewing and happening. The school district, as I said, I worked in the over the past 10-11 years had had a lot of changes. I started, the more I was having conversations with families and these topics were coming up, I really got tired of hearing the word colorblind, and my students or my students and, and I decided, like we need to sit down and really talk about what we're saying and what we're saying that we don't see that we need to be seen. And so I did a book study with a group of teachers, majority white women, there was one woman of color in the group who actually reached out and said, Can I do this, even though I'm not white, and it made the group that much more robust, and we used the book Waking Up White. We did a peace circle type format, and they would journal in between so they'd read and they journal, and then we'd sit in these groups and have these uncomfortable conversations and just get into our feelings around this. And transfer. How does this transfer into your classroom? How does this transfer with your parents? How does this transfer to your peers when they're having these conversations. And, again, it just happened to be in the midst of the election. And then a lot of my end, towards the end of our work together, a lot of the conversations were about, you know, we were we were behind this, you know, myth of colorblindness. However now blatant racism is being encouraged. So now are the transitions even more powerful, and then the pain that a lot of them felt after the election in dealing with those feelings and supporting students. So a lot of that came out in the research as well. The biggest goal being to have these conversations to get uncomfortable, because we can't do this work without taking care of ourselves and getting to know ourselves first. So

Amy Vujaklija: 10:48

I have two questions. One, I didn't share what your dissertation title was,

Candace Smith: 10:55

I apologize. Racial Consciousness of Educators. My

Amy Vujaklija: 11:00

second thing is, when you talk about uncomfortable conversations, what were some ways that you framed this work that you were doing to allow for those uncomfortable conversations to take place to really, like you said, to unpack this tension and to journal? What did you do? How did you make that happen? Because I think that's really important for the rest of what we're going to talk about today.

Candace Smith: 11:31

Well, there were a few things. So first of all, that journaling was supposed to allow them to put those honest, uncomfortable feelings on paper. So that there wouldn't be you know, there's a little more of a pause when you're in a group, and you're just opening up to like, what you're aware of, but in that space, when they're able, and, you know, there's research about pen to paper, so it was literally pen to paper writing. And they were allowed to explore those feelings prior to us getting together. So you know, kind of pouring them out, being aware of them. And then the book confronts a lot of those topics. So setting up the space was important them understanding it had nothing, because because some one of the risks was the fact that I was their administrator for some of them, or an administrator in the district. So there, they were a little nervous about that in the beginning. But then I think the more I engaged with the work with them, I think, that showed that I was willing to admit to things to talk about my own things that I needed to work on, we were in a location where no one was around, they knew that the work, their names would be protected, you know, I put all those normal things in place, so that they could speak freely. And anytime something came up, where it got really uncomfortable in the room, we would all kind of sit, I wouldn't jump in and say, okay, so you're feeling uncomfortable. Now let's talk about how you're feeling comfortable. It was, let's sit for a minute, let's sit with that. And having to sit with that and kind of process and digest that information. And as we watched, feelings evolved, it went from instead of feelings of protectiveness, it became, you know, we went past the denial, and then towards the end of getting angry. I mean, especially with all the things that were being said, during the election, I think there was a lot of anger and their confusion, and then, you know, just a lot to process. So just I think when we allow space, and don't try to tell somebody, oh, you're feeling uncomfortable, you know, describe your uncomfortability you know, it's like No, sit in it be uncomfortable.

Joi Patterson: 13:40

I love that. Yeah, I really love that. And I mean, this conversation is so timely for so many reasons. And this year, we celebrated for the first time here at the University, National Day of racial healing, which set off a number of things. And now we're having this book discussion on The Little Book of Racial Healing, which are also helping to facilitate through that process, I ran into a white, middle age, male professor, and who's part of the book discussion. And he said so many times, he wanted to say something during the discussion. And he had to wrestle with himself. And he says, I'm a white man, I've been talking too much. I need to start listening. And so he said, that was just today that he said that to me. And he said, I'm always willing, you know, wanting to share and put my views out there. And he said, for the first time I listened, and he said, I heard and I think it's just so important, you know, to have these courageous conversations, and to be honest with ourselves. Illinois, is one of the few states that have adopted This racism free school act. And actually Governor State University along with one other university, were you the only two universities in Illinois that supported this? So this racism free school Act requires now that every Illinois public spoon p 12. School adopt policy on race related acts of hate, train their employees on how to recognize and report when this is going on inform students and families about their rights. You know, so it's really trying to curb that because we're seeing the numbers increase so much around racial harassment. And what really was a tipping point for me, is when I don't know if you all know the name, I'm gonna say her name Antoinette kondia. Bailey, this is the higher ed administrator, who recently died by suicide. After accusing the university leadership, I believe it was the president of workplace mistreatment. So she was claiming racial harassment. And then she committed suicide. And so the racial harassment is increasing. And it's real. And I don't have a question here right now, but I'm wanting you and Amy to kind of react to this because in November 2021, report found hate crimes in schools increased by 81%. From 2016 to 2018. And 48% of these war related were racially identify. So it is estimated that 1.6 million students are targeted by hate speech and a single school year. Another study recorded that five racist incidents endured are endured by black students every day. So it's not a question, but I want to hear your reaction to kind of what the state is doing. And some of the figures that we're we're hearing,

Amy Vujaklija: 17:21

I saw a recent report that really extends that and it was just jaw dropping, and scary that during the five year period between 2018 2022 schools were the third highest group of hate crimes. But what is really even, maybe more troubling and more difficult for me to wrap my head around is if we have children, enacting hate crimes, and maybe the adults in the building are guilty of these hate crimes. Who is the model are the behaviors, I cannot wrap my head around why anti Black and African American hate crimes were the highest with 1690 offenses that took place at schools over that five year period. anti Jewish hate crimes, anti LGBTQ. And these are reported by the FBI, in a huge database, they have to have a database to keep track of hate crimes. And that's really troubling to me. But who are the models for our children? And what do we do to to counteract that negativity that is coming in from so many places, whether it's social media from the news,

Joi Patterson: 18:52

I'm looking at our program, there were five white women who teamed up on anti racism. And they described themselves as the solution. I was like, We are mothers, we are the nurturers of our kids. We are responsible for indigenous, that we have a huge role. This is our role. We want it to end it needs to start with white mothers. So I want to also know your reaction to that too. And is that something that you also claim?

Candace Smith: 19:29

So those are two really large questions. I do believe that white women are a huge source of a lot of the issues. I think that to your to your question, Joi. I think they're right as as mothers, we have a responsibility. I think all parents have a responsibility. I think we have a role to speak out to make sure that people understand that they should be uncomfortable having openly racial racist conversations around us and just A quick, I'm not gonna give all the details. But just a quick story related to that is the fact that I went to a one of those makeup parties in my neighborhood, you know, where they sell you product or whatever. And I came late and the woman had a little bit to drink. And somehow, because I'm in education, the conversation started about school supplies, then it got into free and reduced lunch programs, then it got into immigrants not knowing English. And then it got into my people, as they were referenced, you know, Canvas, your people that you're always defending your people that you're always and this is like, this is my neighborhood, these are the people I was around. So speaking to that, it's important that people and of course, I said my piece, and then I made my exit, and that left them, hopefully feeling uncomfortable. But speaking to that those women, yes, they are representative of needing to make a difference. But the solution is, so there's so many steps involved. So we need to remember, like, we're Midwest, okay, so we have our beliefs, and the way that we kind of have conversations around this. But throughout my consulting, I've been to places rural communities where it looks a little bit different, where the conversations are, these microaggressions slip in and the lack of understanding of history and knowledge. And then I've been to communities where the racism is blatant. And that's not to say the work around us doesn't need to get done. It definitely does. But the way conversations happen are different. And I think one of the people I've read and follow and hurts speaks to, you need to be having these conversations at the dinner table, you can go into public forums, you can go into all these places and say you're having these conversations and post your little posts. But if you're not having these conversations at the dinner table, or at the big family dinner tables that they say not to get into politics, then you're not really invoking any change. And so we do have a role. And as white women and men, we need to be understanding a intersectionality. But we also need to be understanding that we're the ones representing racism, you know, we're the ones being racism, we're the other, we're the ones placing people in categories of other. And so if you're either white or other than that's where these issues start coming into speak to Amy's point, it happens in schools because of what happens at home. And regardless of what we may or may not think politics play a huge part in what happens in schools. And if it's okay to say on a platform as a politician, then it's okay to say in schools, as children perceive it. And as a lot of schools allow it. So unfortunately, there are schools that continue these and allow these things.

Amy Vujaklija: 22:59

I want to point out two things that you said, and I want to unpack a little bit more for our listeners, is microaggressions. And intersectionality. If you do a little bit like expand those terms for us, so we can really think about where we are and our own intersectionality.

Candace Smith: 23:23

So microaggressions are those little things that have a big impact. So they're continually said, especially to people of color, like, Oh, you have such good. Your language is so good. You have such good vocabulary and enunciation, or things like asking somebody where they're from just because they're not white, or not being aware of, you know, certain continents having multiple locations. You know, I think recently there was an I apologize for not having his name, he was Singaporean. And the Congress kept quizzing him about his if he was part of the Chinese government, and he's like, No, I said, I'm from Singapore. So even in Congress, we have people that are, you know, so it's, it's those things that continually build up and beat a person down and talk about that other ring in terms of intersectionality. So this is where we say, oh, I want to fight for women, you know, like feminists, right? I'm a feminist. I speak to this. But I don't stand up for black women, or I won't have conversations around the things happening in Palestine. So it's, you can't just be supportive of one group. It's a matter of being a part of all of these groups in the way they all cross. In terms of the normalized expectations. Especially we'll just focus on America.

Joi Patterson: 24:50

We are exploring anti racism practices with Dr. Candace Smith, who is an assistant professor at Governors State University and is an expert on the top Topic of anti racism. I do want to address the elephant in the room. What does a white girl who has a PhD know about acts of racism? And why is this topic of special interest to you?

Candace Smith: 25:16

Well, first, I want to say I'm not an expert, by no means I'm just a woman who's continually willing to learn and grow, and feels very strongly about this. There's a lot of details for how I ended up here and why this ended up being something that I feel very powerful about. And honestly, the earliest time I can remember where I felt the need to speak up for somebody was fourth grade, Jonathan Virgo, my best friend at the time, was over hanging out in the yard, we were just playing on the swings that hanging out with our friends. And my stepdad had a problem with him being there because he was black. And indirectly said something to me. And I was just appalled and offended and, and then I started to notice people in my family would make comments not about him in particular, but it just, I became aware of it. And I didn't understand this, I had a lot happened to me, my childhood, and I had the cloak of whiteness, that kept me from severe penalties and getting in trouble and carrying burdens with me I was, my troubles were very much ignored. Because I was this white girl growing up and seemed harmless. Despite all the things I did that had I been, for example, a black man or a black woman, I probably would have been noticed more. And those things all my life stood out to me. And whereas I wanted to make sure I was seen as a human, I wanted to make sure that everyone had an opportunity to be seen for who they were. And so this work carried on. And as I shared in the beginning, I started to see these things, and I had to work through my own white savior ism to understand that it's not about having the power to save, it's about being empowered to be a voice and to have someone's back. And, you know, all these experiences have led me to say, what are we doing? Where's the humanity of education? Where's the humanity of us as people? Why are we ignoring so many things happening in the world? And why are we so scared to face the fact that we need to grow, that we need to look at ourselves. And so this work just has always, I've always gravitated towards it. And during my last principalship, I had some run ins with the police in the neighborhood. And, you know, I'm not I don't want to categorize anyone into one group. But there were a lot of things said to me by those police officers, that just speaks to the system itself. And, you know, when you're when you hear things like, Well, where do you think you work? Or what do you expect, or the differences in the way you're treated? You know, those types of things really broaden, will open your eyes to the things that are happening.

Amy Vujaklija: 28:07

I want to talk about education, as a teacher educator, and think about principal preparation. We in Illinois, are in the process of implementing the Illinois State Board of Education, culturally responsive teaching and leading standards. And one of the big standards is the analysis of personal biases. So first of all, just want to get your take on the standards themselves. Do they go far enough? Are? Are you seeing that they will be beneficial? But secondly, who do you see is most uncomfortable with these standards?

Candace Smith: 28:48

So first, I think anytime we standardize anything, it gets a little tricky, because then it becomes another box to check or something to do. So I think it depends on who's implementing them, and the importance they see in them or feel in them, if you want them to be done correctly. So what does this actually look like implemented? Verse, oh, I'm checking a box. It's a standard, this is an activity we're going to do kind of thing right happens with any standard that's out there. We just We do it because we have to. And so even with the racisms preschool, that that's something I hope that we're more careful with, you know, that we're intentional in our practice. And as a teacher and principal preparation. Professor, I try to be intentional in everything that I do. So if I'm saying I'm doing the standard, what does that look like? Am I Is there an outcome? That is intentional? And I think when we're talking about things like culturally relevant pedagogy or learning standards tied to that are culturally responsive teaching, I think we need to make sure that we understand what those standards mean, and that their purpose is for the betterment of society as a whole. Because essentially, that's what education is we're supposed to be educating the future to make the world a better place. And so when it comes to those personal bias, who do I see the most uncomfortable with, you know, examining their bias. Typically, it's white folks, because we don't want to be labeled as racist. And we assume that bias means racist, whereas everyone has some form of bias. And I think that's eye opening. In my, one of my classes, we take the Harvard online quiz, and it has all different categories. So we take one in class, and then we kind of share our thoughts without, you know, I don't require anyone to give me an error information we talk about this is your personal work to be done. This is how you're going to have an impact on your students. So what does bias do mean? We make judgments all day, we're always looking at each other passing some sort of judgment, but bias becomes harmful. So what do you need to examine? And so a lot of my students come back and they're like, you know, I took a different quiz. And I was very surprised that I have some bias in that area. And the conversation is, well, what do we do about it? And then are we integrating these practices throughout the semester, and having these conversations around these topics? Because that's when you know that you're actually doing that intentional work and not just checking a box? You

Joi Patterson: 31:12

know, I know, we've been talking a lot about P 12. But educators are experiencing racial harassment in higher education as well. And not just students. We're also seeing educators experiencing this, you know, as we know, higher education faculty, there's a lot of international faculty in the US. So there's a huge increase in students who are making personal racial bias remarks on evaluations. And so this is on the rise, and it's very disheartening. I mean, there's so many questions here, like, why are people more emboldened to racially harass? Could you imagine doing that to your professor when you were in college? I can't even imagine. So why are people or emboldened to do this, you think we'd be getting better? Not worse? And what are things that we can do to end this, you know, so now getting into some strategies, and you're giving us some along the way too, but I'm just wondering why people are so emboldened to do this. And you alluded to that to some of that, too, because some of it is political.

Candace Smith: 32:26

Yeah, I mean, I don't think that this is an easy answer. We're gonna solve all the world's mysteries today. I do think, similar to social media or the internet, I think students assume that these evaluations are anonymous, which they are anonymous, but I mean, that we, you know, that it's fine, because no one will know. So I can say what I want to say, just like I would, you know, they talk about trolls on social media and that sort of thing. People who feel there's a power and anonymity, right. So I can be, I can be myself completely, I don't have to hold back, regardless of who I do harm to. And, you know, political climate, you spoke to people who believe that like, I should get to say what I want, I pay for this. I mean, there's a lot wrapped up in that, you know, blatant racism, you know, the kid came to class racist, you're probably not going to leave, cured of your racism. To end this. I just, I think we need to continue having the conversations. You know, I tell the teachers that our teacher candidates, you are working with the actual hope for our future, right? There's a lot of all adults there, we are not going to be able to change. However, will you are working with the children. And this is where we have conversations about same and different. And one of the conversations we had recently was when a child, especially like thinking of early childhood, points out a difference in somebody's right? Why did they look like this? What is the typical response from the parents? Right? Instead of, well, everyone looks a little bit different, their skin is a little bit different. We can't you know, like getting into those conversations about why we're different. And then finding why we're saying so like, in our class is really having those conversations about same and different. And that we're in a great big world. This is not this. This is not what the entire world looks like. You know, there's a lot of push for Oh, in your classroom, make sure you have something that represents the students in your classroom. Yes, very important. I do not disagree with that. But also have literature and posters and information and lessons on people that are not in your classroom. You know, are we teaching about this entire world? Are we so focused on where we're located, that we aren't having these conversations? And so I think for some of our students, we have to remember they're coming from different locations, some rural populations are more isolated from coming unities were, you know, these conversations are acceptable. So I think it's like these small things and calling these things to the table that we need to make. My biggest message is we need to make racism uncomfortable again, like, I know, it was still, it's always been happening systems have been set up this way, and continue to call them out. But I think we also need to say it's not okay to be blatantly racist, regardless of what those in power may be doing.

Amy Vujaklija: 35:32

So I would like to know, if you could you share some of the work that you're doing with local schools? What what does that work look like? And what would schools do tomorrow? What are small steps? Big Question, couple of directions you

Candace Smith: 35:50

can go, I can just explain a couple of things I'm doing. So right now I'm working on a research project. And we've just started trying to connect with school districts, which has been a challenge because we were using the word antiracist. And what we were looking for was back after 2020, after all those conversations, and everyone posting their little black boxes and saying they're willing to do this work, and the school saying we're going to do these things, we're going to have these conversations, where are we now and what is happening, and what have the impact of those programs, or, you know, dei officers or all of that what what is happening now. And what I found was most of the districts and folks that I reached out to anti racist, they, they highly recommend not using those words, because it's controversial. And so we change to culturally relevant pedagogy. And I've only been able to find a very small percentage of school districts who are willing to have the conversation with us. And the goal was to talk to all stakeholders, so have a conversation with diminished school level administration, teachers and faculty, and then parents and students, because if you're doing this work, the parents and students should be feeling that impact of change. Right. So like, that's, that should be your overarching goal. But we're, we weren't hearing back. So very small percentage of people that said they'd be willing to talk to us about this work, tell us what they've been doing. And so that's alarming to me that we're back to being afraid to use the word anti racist, because it's politically charged, anti racist, not racist against racism. And that's what we're afraid to use. And then my additional work, I do consulting, and it's social emotional learning with schools, I'm a part of a team. And that's become controversial. So talking about whole child's development, which is embedded within this work, those conversations come up as well. Yeah,

Joi Patterson: 37:49

I have a philosophy to about a, how do we move the needle on this? And I believe it's really the knowledge, you know, having the knowledge first, that whole exposure to more cultures and learning about yourself and learning about other people having these opportunities, like you said before, not to be that parent, when a child said, Oh, why does that kid look like that, to just be very honest with your child so that they are exposed and accept people that are different than them. And having that knowledge, I think we have to have the knowledge before we can have the heart. And you know what it's like, when you have the knowledge. You didn't look at that kid, when you were in fourth grade as a stranger, you knew him, you didn't know him, like you knew him. And so you had already developed our heart for him. And so we have to have that knowledge in order to develop a heart and then we can do action. And so it's with us with exposure to a lot of knowledge. So I do have a question about are we could do something subliminal, you know, we could just have some.

Candace Smith: 39:00

Well, just just speak to that before you ask your question. You know, the other thing too, is, when all this was happening, I know a lot of parents were saying, I don't want to make my children uncomfortable. I don't want them to know that racism exists. And it's, I had so many conversations with parents about, Oh, it must be nice to be white and not have to talk about racism, you know, as my friends are having conversations with their children about how to protect themselves and be safe. And, you know, it's like, you're not protecting your child. So we should be talking, you know, our children about how to look out for their friends. You know, my kids know, if, if they're out with their friends, how to protect them or how to be an ally, like those are what are you doing? How are you putting the work in, you know, are your kids out there protesting with you? Or are you keeping them at home and hiding behind? We do have an issue with white liberal women in America to like, we're speaking to these things, but not all these things right. So There's a lot of work to be done. And let's stay

Joi Patterson: 40:01

on that for a moment. I don't know your views, the two of you your views on spanking children. But I bet you, if your child runs out into the street and almost gets hit by a car, they probably got spanked that day, out of fear. That's what it feels like to be a mother of a black kid is that I'm a fear. So that same fear that you have, that my child could run out in the street. So this is not the time for you to let me have a little conversation with Johnny and tell him about the dangers of No, you want Johnny to remember this, and associated with some kind of pain. So this is what it feels like, you know, when you're the parent of an African American boy, you have to teach this is what you do when you're driving. This is how you speak if you get pulled over, when you go out with all of your white friends. This is how you have to behave. I can't You can't afford to do what they do. You can't afford to get into trouble. You don't have that luxury. You know, so you're having all these conversations, in part of if you're feeling like, well, I don't want to teach my kid about racism, I don't want to keep perpetuating this, and teach my kid about racism. But at the same time, you're like, I'm trying to save my child's life. So these are things that I need to share to keep them alive. So because these are this is very, very real. These are real conversations. These are conversations that happen all the time. I have a grandson and I regret the day, I regret the day that we have to have these type of conversations with him. I do have a final question for you, as we kind of wrap up here. This is this has been an extraordinary conversation. I mean, we can have this conversation all day. But I do have a question about having a policy such as racism free school. And the reason for that name is exactly what you said anti racism was a little harsh. So it was like racism, free schools, and not put it on the person. So you know, we're always looking for things where we can smooth it out right, and make it palatable. So when we have these policies such as racism free school, how is this policy? How do you see it different than a bullying policy? Or a harassment policy? And what would be your hope, through a policy like this? Well,

Candace Smith: 42:42

so when we're talking about racism, versus bullying and harassment, I think it's important to educate the adults within a school about what the differences are. And I think as I read a little bit more about this act and got more information, it's about also educating similar to how we do the mandated reporter. And what I'd like to see, though, is that this becomes work within schools. And although I know there's going to be a lot of resistance, I mean, I've been around enough teachers that are like, Oh, it's another thing mandated. I do this already, or it'll pass or any of that, what I'd like to see is the work actually being done. So teachers, this is what this looks like, right? Administrators, this is what this looks like. You know, it has to start from the administration, being able to, to really do this work to discuss what acts of racial bullying, racial harassment, racial violence, what that actually means and what that looks like. It's not just a thing to be ignored. It's not just a thing that kids do. It's life altering. It's, it does internal harm that lasts and just perpetuates generational trauma. And so for both parties, I know some of the things that I read was like, kids having to leave schools or the teacher being removed. Instead this this asks for, are we having the conversations are we doing the restorative practices afterwards is that child's having an opportunity to heal from their harm, and to call out their victims or their victims being called out? And so my hope is that we take this and actually apply it with its intention. Because we go through an education, a lot of phases. And I tell my students this all the time, the pendulum swings from one side to the other. So we had zero tolerance. Then we had restorative practices that were used in overused without consequences. And instead of being in the middle and saying, No, there's consequences restorative practices, say they're supposed to be, you know, so finding that middle point in education, and I think this work is critical for us as a society. And if it's done properly, we can heal a lot. to harm for children and prevent the cyclical response of what happens when you're traumatized in your school years, right? Because then what happens? Do you want to be in school when you've experienced this kind of trauma, and no one stood up for you? No. And then we ended up dropping out and we see these cycles. And this is what we talk about when we talk about systemic racism.

Joi Patterson: 45:22

My hope is that we're able to do that, my fear is that when you have a policy, there's also consequences, that that means someone's going to break that policy. And when they break that policy, then what happens to them? Now? What's the backlash? You know, when you have mad new teachers getting in trouble for breaking the policy? So that has its consequences, too? But yes, my hope is what it is that I share what you hope, and that it pushes the needle forward, that we continue to get better that we continue to wipe out racism, if we can wipe it out in schools, then we wipe it out in our nation. Absolutely.

Amy Vujaklija: 46:02

Wow. There's just so much to take away from this conversation. And I really hope our listeners tuned in and listened. There's a lot that can be taken into the classroom tomorrow. But think about a lot of conversations that administrators might consider having with their faculty and staff. Because when we look at five year period of 1690, offenses, those offenses have faces, both the offender and the one who was the victim. And if we can do something, but it starts it starts with our conversations, right?

Joi Patterson: 46:49

It starts with knowledge and getting to know each other. And I just want to say one final thing before we go. And I'm just so happy that we have this conversation just to give you a visual. On my way to work on Friday, I saw a young, young African American male running to school. So I looked at my clock and I said, Oh, he's late already, you know, and he still had about three more blocks ago. And I said he's, he was perspiring, he was running as fast as he could, he had a heavy foot back on his back. He's running on the, on the shoulder of the street. And I thought to myself, when he gets to school, when he goes to his first period of class late, how will that Professor treat him? Will you treat this child? As you're late? Get out of my classroom, go to the office? Or do you know this child? And do you know what this child had to do to even make it to your class? And I think we need to really get to know each other, get to know our students, because once we see them as people, once we see them as equal, we get rid of all this racism.

Candace Smith: 48:07

That speaks to the whole community. You know, what, what are we going to get back to our schools, being our communities, right? Their communities are our children and students and the families like we spend a lot of time together in our schools. So what are we going to get back to the fact that it's a community, and we need to work and think like a community.

Joi Patterson: 48:30

But thank you so much, Dr. Candace Smith.

Candace Smith: 48:34

Thank you. Have a good afternoon.

Amy Vujaklija: 48:38

Thank you for listening to teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joy. Visit our website at govst.edu/teaching and leading podcast to see the show notes from this episode.

Joi Patterson: 48:55

We appreciate Governor state universities work behind the scenes to make publishing possible. Stay tuned for more episodes with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi.